Hi, I'm Piper Harris, licensed professional counselor, and welcome to the Untingled Mind Podcast. This is a show for people who want to understand why their mind works the way it does, not just how to cope with it. Drawing from neuropsychology, neurophilosophy, and data-driven CBT, we look at how anxiety and trauma shape perception, behavior, and choice and what actually helps people change. I'm an integrative CBT therapist based in the Atlanta suburbs. Each episode is designed to teach you something concrete, how to recognize what's keeping you stuck, how to interrupt unhelpful patterns, and how to move forward with clarity and steadiness. If the thing that makes you feel valuable disappeared tomorrow, would you still know who you are? Your career, your marriage, your appearance, your accomplishments, being needed by your children, someone wanting you, the number of people paying attention to you online. Most of us would be affected if we lost something important to us, and that's normal. But what happens when those things aren't simply important to you? What happens when you need them to tell you something about your value? And what happens when that need follows you into therapy? Because sometimes we can change relationships, change jobs, delete an app, find another therapist, and still carry the exact same problem with us. Today we're talking about contingent self-worth. What happens when we outsource our value to other people, and why even therapy can become another place to do it? Hey there and welcome back. So today we're really talking about um you know something called contingent self-worth. And what my question for you um during this time together, and I want you to consider this as we're spending time together today, is have you outsourced your self-worth? So if the thing that makes you feel valuable disappeared tomorrow, would you still know who you are? This is a really important question. That question is what I want you to keep in the back of your mind uh throughout this entire conversation. So psychologists they use this term called contingent self-worth. So it describes a sense of personal value and it depends on meeting certain conditions. In ordinary language, you're okay if and then you're worthy when. Does that make sense? So you're okay if finger quotation marks and you're worthy when finger quotation marks. You're secure as long as finger quotation marks. So for example, I'm worthwhile if I'm successful. Um, I'm lovable if people want me. I'm a good person if nobody is disappointed in me. I'm attractive if someone desires me. I matter if I'm needed. And to be clear, um caring about these things doesn't mean you have some real terrible self-esteem problem. Human beings are absolutely relational creatures. We care about what other people think of us, obviously. Rejection hurts, and being loved feels good. These are normal human reactions. Accomplishments feel good, right? Being recognized for something you've worked hard on to achieve, that feels really good. But the question is whether those experiences are affecting your feelings about yourself or they determine them. So that is a very, very different thing. I want to talk about some signs that your self-worth may have become more contingent than you realize. And this is something that I see in the therapy room. This is what I see in my own life. And so this is really helpful for all of us to stand out of self and ensure that we don't have or we're aware of, I should say, this contingent self-worth. I believe every human being has this at some point or not. But if this is the sole kind of arbiter of who you are, it's something that you really need to consider and start working on. So let's look at these signs that your self-worth may be contingent. Number one, criticism doesn't just hurt, it destabilizes you. This is a big one. So when someone's criticism becomes much bigger than the criticism itself can be a key indicator that this is something part a part of the contingent self-worth. Instead of asking, is there anything useful here? You begin asking something like, well, what does this say about me? Does that make sense? So rather than okay, somebody's giving me criticism, I'm gonna take this about me rather than uh my report that I sent in. And maybe, maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong with their criticism, maybe they're just being an ass. But you have a lot of people with this, they tend to have a difficulty evaluating the criticism because people are too busy experiencing it as a verdict on themselves. So, number one. Number two, reassurance works, but it is very short-lived. It has a very short half-life. So it might be something like you ask your spouse whether everything is okay and they say yes, and you feel better for a second. And then later their tone seems a little bit different. And then you go up to them and you say, Okay, are you are you sure everything is okay? And they're like, Yes. So you get relief again until there's a next cue where you there's something going on. So that's one of the problems with reassurance. If the reassurance that you gain becomes the mechanism through which you establish I'm okay and I have to keep obtaining it. So if you're constantly needing reassurance, then that's the problem because the very mechanism of receiving the reassurance becomes a mechanism that keeps your contingent self-worth. I see this in therapy often where people want to be reassured, like, am I doing well? Am I, you know, your best therapy client? And everybody wants reassurance. There's nothing wrong with that. But if this is something that you solely rely on, then that relationship even with a counselor can become uh an issue. Okay. Number three, achievement feels more like relief than satisfaction. I will say, speaking from personal experience, that this is my big one. This is my big one. So say you might accomplish something that's very significant. And so instead of thinking something like, oh wow, I'm, you know, really proud of what I did, your nervous system seems to say, okay, thank God I'm still good enough. This is a big one for me. And this has a lot of lot to do with um kind of those narratives that we've adopted through life. And I I don't think this is necessarily great. Obviously, we need to be aware that this might be an Achilles heel like I am with myself. What I will say is that I tend to drive harder because of this. So there's costs and benefits to it, right? Like my heart hurts because I can't really enjoy satisfaction because I'm constantly chasing. Well, does that make me good enough? And oftentimes I kind of collapse. I'm like, oh my gosh, I was chasing good enough and I wasn't um really enjoying satisfaction. So this is a big one. This is a big one for me. I don't know if this one's a big one for you. So basically, achievement feels more like relief than satisfaction. That's a big, big indicator that you're stepping into that outsourcing of self-worth. Number four, someone else's success feels threatening. And it's not because you're a terrible person, but it's because your value depends on where you stand relative to other people and their movement changes your position. So someone else's promotion or their appearance or their relationship or income or their followers on social media, their success or recognition can suddenly feel like information about you when it has nothing to do with you. So, kind of like the saying goes, comparison is the thief of joy. This is what we're talking about. When you feel like someone else's success is threatening you, this is definitely indication of a contingent self-worth. Number five, rejection becomes judgment. Oof, this is a really big one. So maybe it's someone doesn't want another date, maybe you're not invited, maybe a friend doesn't respond right away right away, maybe your adult child doesn't call you. Um, maybe somebody unfollows you and they thought maybe they were kind of a parallel friend. So the event that might legitimately hurt you. We're not saying that those things don't hurt, but contingent self-worth adds another layer to it because then the next question goes, well, what does it say about me? What's wrong with me? That's where you get that rejection becomes judgment. So the rejection can hurt, rejection does hurt. We're human beings, but when it becomes that added layer of contingent self-worth, it's when we're like, okay, but what's wrong with me? Rather than they just didn't answer the phone, or rather than my kids aren't calling me. If you don't jump to the conclusion that there's something wrong with you, then you've got that handled. Rejection can feel bad, just don't go any further with it. Number six, you change depending on who's in the room. So you are a chameleon. And this one I see a lot in therapy, and it can be very hard for people, especially because ultimately what the hope is in therapy is that you can be very authentic. Um, and so then once you are really truly being authentic in that room, right? Very private space, then you almost rely on it more. Does that make sense? But here's the thing: I'm not talking about normal social flexibility. All of us have to do that. We do, it just depends on the moment in time. Most of us behave very differently at Thanksgiving dinner than we do with our closest friend. So that's normal. That makes sense. I'm talking about when you modify yourself to maintain acceptance. That's what I'm talking about. So, what do they want me to be? What opinion is the safest here? What version of me does this person like? And eventually what happens is it becomes really difficult to determine where that accommodation ends and where you begin. Because essentially you're just a mealing in for everybody and you don't even know who you are. So we run into this a lot in the therapy room. Um, and so we do do some behavioral experiments about um authentically showing up in different relationships and driving data because that's what it is. You go in, say, to a conversation with a friend and you share something maybe a little bit more vulnerable and you take the data from it. And so this is it's really important to be aware that if you're shifting your persona all the time, this is a contingent self-worth. Very, very huge, huge indication of that. Um, okay, number seven, you have a tremendous amount of difficulty disappointing people. Um, so sometimes we call this people pleasing. I like to tell people that I'm a reformed people pleaser. But I really want you to encourage you to go underneath people pleasing, under that label, because what exactly happens inside of you, I want to know that. What happens inside of you when somebody is disappointed in you? Because the belief under the people pleasing isn't simply, I don't like conflict. It's really closer to if you're not okay with me, then I'm not okay with me. Okay. So disappointing people, that is a part of life. And again, this is something that we work on a lot in the therapy room of boundaries. This is what boundaries are. I tell people all the time boundaries are not about keeping people out, boundaries are about telling people what you're capable of participating in. Now, whoever you know you set the boundary with, they can define it however they want. But really, what you're saying is, hey, I'm capable or I'm able to do X, Y, and Z. If that doesn't line up with what you want, then sorry, but this is just this is my abilities at this time. But if you're constantly upset about disappointing people, what it is is it's like, okay, well, if they're not okay with me, if I'm not people pleasing enough, then that means something's wrong with me. And that's really key for you to pay attention. A lot of people with high anxiety have um real high people pleasing tendencies. Um, and so this is a big one that we see a lot of times, especially my type A's. Um, they are typically really hard workers, but what we end up finding is that the contingent self-worth is enormous because they're people pleasers because they have to achieve, because there's no such thing as satisfaction, and then they keep people pleasing and they don't want to disappoint people, even though they get burnt out, and then ultimately they're going to disappoint people because they can't handle everything. I mean, it is quite the hamster wheel to get on. Okay, number eight, being needed feels a lot like being loved. Here's another big one. So you're probably calling yourself the fixer, the dependable one, um, and you're probably the one that people call all the time. And that can certainly be generosity. Absolutely. But here's the question, the harder question. Who are you when nobody needs anything from you? Aye. If that question makes you uncomfortable, you need to pay attention to it. Because if you don't know who you are, if you're not the fixer, if you're not the dependable one, if you're not the one everybody calls, then what are you? And again, this is not about generosity. We can choose generosity, but if you choose generosity at the expense of yourself, that is a problem. So what you're doing is you're deriving feeling loved because you're needed. And ultimately, this is where I talk to clients about um givers and takers. Um, you become a giver, a give, a give, a give, a give. And guess what? The takers of the world can sniff you out like nothing because they know you're gonna fulfill their needs. And so this is something to be very aware of. All right, number nine, you confuse being wanted with being worthy. Oh, so this is a big one I see with a lot of people that come into my office, especially with developmental traumas, so childhood traumas, that sort of thing, is that they can confuse being wanted by people, being desired as being worthy. And this is just based on just how that personality, how that psyche um grew. And then you add in all of the childhood traumas that can take place with that. And so what happens is sometimes romantic attention, it starts to feel really, really good, right? And so do like the likes and the comments on social media and the text messages and the invitations and the compliments and all the praise. And none of those things are inherently unhealthy, but they become psychologically expensive when you start using them as measurements. Okay, so when you start saying, Well, am I wanted? Did they notice me? Am I still attractive? Do people still care? Do I still matter? And in particular, if you start um asking those questions when it comes to the physical self, the physical self. So I'm talking about how you look. Um, if if like you're on social media all the time, well, why didn't I get that many likes on that picture? I don't understand. Um, that contingent self-worth, boy, being wanted is completely different than being worthy. And I have to say to those of you that have the the click addiction or the likes addiction, um, that's not worth. That's not worth getting all the clicks. It's not. And if your your self-esteem is built on that picture, that pose and how many likes and shares that you get, and you're not actually selling anything, you're not selling like a product, you are not a product. That's you have a contingent self-worth, and that's something to be very aware of. Okay, number 10. You understand all of this intellectually, okay, but your behavior tells a totally different story. And this one may be like the most important one. So you can tell me that your worth doesn't depend on another person, and then you check whether they viewed your story, right? Um, you can tell me that your ex doesn't determine your value, and then you look at their page six times today, or you drive by their house, right? You can tell me that social media makes your anxiety substantially worse, and then you tell me you're unwilling to reduce your use of it, right? So the discrepancy really matters. And again, the social media stuff, it's huge. I see it all the time. Because eventually we really do have to move beyond what we understand and look what look at what we're willing to do or what we're willing not to do. Listen, I've called people on this in counseling sessions. Like, you have stated that social media has gotten in trouble. You've told me about the distress that it creates over other, you know, your contingent self-worth, but you are unwilling to get rid of it. And if you're displacing responsibility on somebody else, then you have a contingent self-worth and you're gonna maintain the depart the distress because you're unwilling to lessen your time on social media. Um, so what happens when your contingent self-worth enters into a relationship? So contingent self-worth becomes especially interesting inside more um close relationships because now another human being has an enormous power to supply the whole thing we're looking for, right? Your partner can reassure you, um, your friend can validate you, your parent can finally approve of you, your children can need you. And because those things are temporary, or they temporarily make us feel better, and it's not temporary, I don't want to say that about relationships, but hearing those things can be temporary. What we can do is we can start organizing our behavior around keeping the supply coming, right? So I constantly need reassurance, I constantly need validation, I constantly need approval, I constantly need um, so that can create all kinds of relationships pro relationship problems. But I really do, I do want to talk about one relationship where this gets very complicated in a different way, and that is in a therapeutic relationship. So, what happens when your therapist becomes a new source? So therapy is a very unusual relationship. We know that. Think about what happens in the room, right? Someone pays very, very close attention to you. They remember the details about your life, they ask you how you feel, they try to understand you, and they may even validate some of the experiences of people who haven't understood before, the people that have harmed you. Um therapists, they they notice patterns, they express concerns, and ideally you develop enough trust you can talk about things that you wouldn't discuss anywhere else. That's what you want. That's a good therapist, right? That's a part of what we can make, what can make um therapy incredibly, incredibly useful. It's definitely a huge part of the work I do with my clients. But for someone whose self-worth is already heavily externalized, a lot of people externalize their worth. Um, that relationship can also become um another place for you to seek um the verdict or the worth, right? So it's kind of like you might have questions in your mind with your therapist and ask yourself this. Be really honest. If you're listening and you're currently currently in therapy, if you're asking yourself these questions, you need to consider this. And and this is what I would say if you say yes to any of these questions, it's okay to bring this to your your um counselor. In fact, I really encourage you because this is um something that we discuss um called transference. And so this is a really good opportunity for your counselor to step into this with you. So if you are someone who heavily externalizes self-worth, the therapeutic relationship can become kind of muddy. So if you ask yourself, just think about this. If you say this to yourself, um, or you said this to your client or your counselor, excuse me, um, do you think I'm okay? Do you think I'm a good person? Do you think I handled that correctly? Are you proud of me? Are you disappointed in me? Do you like me? Are we okay? So that it doesn't always look like dependency, and that's what I want to say. These are normal questions when you're in that kind of an intimate relationship with your therapist. So I'm not demeaning that at all. But when you derive everything from that counselor and the outside world feels scary, uh, you need to have that conversation with your counselor for sure. Because again, that's not necessarily dependency, but it can go there. Um, sometimes it looks like just being like an awesome, fantastic therapy client, right? That you're just like cognizant of, like, hey, am I on track? Am I doing my homework piper? You know, you know, all those things. Like, for example, a few weeks ago, a complete mishap happened. So I had a client that always showed up at a certain time on Thursdays at five. I think it's Thursdays at five, or no, Wednesdays at five. And so, but I had a different client that actually snagged that spot and they were online. So the normal Wednesday at five came walking in and I thought, oh, okay, they're here. And my brain didn't click. You know, I had sessions all day long that no, actually, they weren't scheduled this week, they're scheduled the next week, and you have an online session. I felt like a complete ass because I screwed it up. I'm like, oh my gosh, so I'm midway through the in-person session, and like, oh shoot, I forgot about the online. This is not the online session. And then the online session texts me something like this Are you upset with me? First things first, number one, I'm the one who dropped the ball and I felt like such an ass. I felt so bad. But the second thing that came up to me was why in the world would I be upset with you? Why would I not show up to your appointment because of being what like what that doesn't make sense. I screwed up and I called this person. I'm like, oh my gosh, I screwed up so bad. And they were, thank God, very forgiving. Um, but that initial reaction of, are you upset with me? was me thinking to myself, okay, this is something that she and I need to bring into next session because this is contingent self-worth being really, really loud. And I need to help her with this because if she is maintaining her self-worth through um a session with me every single week and a screw up on my part or just life happens and you think I'm upset, that that's a big indication that we need to look at that. So um, you know, and again, this can be like any great client. You do every assignment, you learn all the terminology, you can even become like super insightful, and you want to know whether you're doing therapy right, and that's awesome. But you're also watching the therapist's face. You're also very sensitive to changes in tone. And what I want to say is like besides this example that I gave you, sometimes a disagreement feels much bigger than just a simple disagreement. So a cancellation from your therapist or when I have to cancel might feel very personal. Or reducing the frequency of therapy sessions feels like rejection. Um, and the idea of eventually ending therapy feels less like evidence that the treatment worked and more like losing an important uh relationship. And this is where therapists have some responsibility in it too, because we can inadvertently reinforce this. So if every uncomfortable self-appraisal is immediately answered with self with assurance by the therapist, reassurance then can become part of the problem. So if every single time I hear a client say maybe something disparaging about their client, I go, no, you're not. If I do that every single time, my reassurance is part of the problem. So if the client feels uncertain and then the therapist reassures, then the client feels better. Then the uncertainty returns, and then the therapist reassures again. So we've created exactly the kind of cycle that a client may already be having with like a spouse or a friend or a partner or a social media audience or really anyone else. So we we just moved it into therapy office and we have to be very, very careful with this therapist. We have to be very, very careful. And listen, those of you that are if you're with a therapist right now and you recognize, oh my gosh, that's what I'm doing with my therapist, okay, tell them about it. That's awesome information for you to share with them. So when insight doesn't um become behavior, I want to talk about that too. Eventually, good therapy has to ask something of you. It just does. And I think it's really important part of therapy that sometimes gets lost. Most times gets lost. Understanding why you developed a pattern is so important. And it can be enormously helpful to understand your attachment history, your trauma, your family, your nervous system, your beliefs, and the experiences that shaped you, obviously. But understanding a behavior does not relieve you of the responsibility to decide what you're going to do with it. I have to say it. So let's use this social media again because it's just a super easy example. Suppose you tell me that your social media is making you miserable. Um, you're constantly comparing yourself, you check who looked at something, you're monitoring whether someone followed you or unfollowed you, maybe you're constantly checking an excess account, or you're posting something and then you're like monitoring for reaction. Um, your mood changes according to what you find. E. We identify the pattern, you understand why you do it, right? We work on emotional regulation, we may even challenge some of the thoughts that are surrounding around those behaviors, right? And eventually I'm gonna say, okay, what are you willing to change about your behavior? Listen, maybe that's removing the apps, maybe it means not looking at your excess page, maybe it means like limiting how often you check. Um, and maybe it even means posting something and deliberately refusing to monitor the response. And then here's the problem. And then you say, No, I don't want to do that. What else can I do? So I've gone through everything in the therapeutic experience. You've gone through my whole pathway, you've gone through the whole book, you've done all this stuff. Like you knocked it out of the park. And then we identify a problem with behavior, like, yeah, no, mm-mm, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna do that because I have externalized so much of my self-worth, I'm not willing to put that down, put down the false tools to build up my worth and use the actual tools that Piper taught me. Yikes, y'all, you have to hear that. And listen, I'm not here to judge, but my gosh, if you keep coming into session and you won't put the social media down and you've learned all the tools, you say, Well, I don't use those tools in that situation. That doesn't work. You are deliberately determining your worth externally and you're deliberately choosing not to use the tools that you know will make you feel better. Okay, we have to look at that. So that's a really important part in therapy. Not because you're being difficult, sometimes you are, and not because you secretly don't want to get better. I don't believe that at all. It's important because now that you've discovered the behavior causing your distress, it's also doing something for you. And that's the hard part, right? The very thing that causes it for distress can also, on the flip side, cause us to have that kind of jolt of, ooh, they see me. So maybe this, maybe every every check gives you another opportunity to answer something. Okay, did they notice me? Did they miss me? Am I still relevant? Do I matter? That's why you're checking your social media every single time. It is. Did they notice me? Did they miss me? Am I still relevant? Do I matter? That is all externalized self-conting self or contingent self-worth, excuse me. So taking away the behavior means you're temporarily taking away one of the ways you learn to answer those questions. And so, of course, that's uncomfortable, but we can't continually treat the consequences of behavior while declaring the behavior itself is off limits. At some point, change requires experimentation. That's what we have to do. That's the whole point of therapy. And sometimes, sometimes I want to say this, we change therapists instead. People do this a lot. This is where I want to talk about something that can be super uncomfortable. Repeatedly moving from therapist to therapist. Tons of people do this. Um, and there are plenty of good reasons to change therapists. I I absolutely agree with that. A therapist can absolutely be a poor fit. They might lack the expertise that you truly need, and maybe the treatment was not effective. Maybe your finances changed, or your insurance insurance changed, or maybe they moved. Um, therapists can make mistakes, and occasionally therapists can really behave badly. Like I'm not giving them a free you know walk on that one. So changing therapist by itself, um it's not necessarily evidence of anything other than that. Now, what I want to talk about is a pattern, a particular pattern that I see. And I see this with a lot of people because ultimately when I'm in consultation, I say, Have you been in therapy for before? Tell me what you liked and disliked about your last therapist. I'll never forget a consultation I had probably earlier this year, and she rattled off probably 15 different therapists. And I said, Okay, I'm confused. They all were bad. She's like, No, I just think I need to learn more. I'm like, ah, hold on a second. So this is the pattern I'm talking about. Say you begin therapy, you tell the story, and then someone listens, therefore, you feel understood, and then there's relief. Eventually, though, therapy moves beyond understanding the problem and towards changing something, or it should. So the therapist asks you to tolerate uncertainty. Okay. So they ask you to stop seeking reassurance, set a boundary, accept that somebody may misunderstand you, stop checking, allow someone to be disappointed, change the behavior you've always identified as harmful, or eventually begin functioning without therapy. Ooh, right? And suddenly this therapist doesn't feel quite as helpful anymore. Now, what can happen too is that therapist just sits on the couch and you still you had the initial relief, but now they're just nodding their head and you're saying the same thing over and over again, and you're not getting that externalized need met. So you need to jump again, right? So maybe you're like, well, they're not validating enough, or maybe they don't understand me anymore, or maybe I've just outgrown them. Maybe you need someone with a different approach, is what you're thinking. So you go and you find another therapist, and something very, very reinforcing happens. You get a start again, you get to tell your story again, a new person listens, a new person understands, a new person validates a pain, and you feel better until the treatment eventually arrives at the same uncomfortable place. Which is, what are you going to do differently? If that cycle keeps repeating, it may be worth asking whether you're actually changing treatment or you're simply changing the person from whom you're receiving reassurance. Ouch. I know that doesn't feel good to hear, but it's a question you need to ask. Because you can change therapists without changing the pattern. You can change partners without changing the pattern. You can leave one social media platform and find another audience. The scenery changes, I get that, but the contingency does not. And so, what I want to say is what is therapy actually supposed to do? And if you guys have listened to me long enough, you're gonna, this is gonna be redundant to you. I don't think successful therapy should make you stop caring about what other people think. I don't. That's neither realistic nor is it desire desirable. And I don't think the goal is to become so independent that you don't need relationships. We need relationships, and I certainly do not think therapy should strip away everything that makes you feel competent or attractive or successful, love, or valued. The goal is different. When you're in therapy, you should become increasingly capable of tolerating someone else's disappointment with disappointment without collapsing. You should be able to hear a disagreement without automatically experiencing as rejection. You should be able to make a decision without needing your therapist to tell you it's the right one. And you should be able to notice the urge for reassurance and sometimes choose not to seek it. You should be able to fail at something and evaluate the failure without turning yourself into the failure. And eventually you should be able to leave therapy. That's really, really, really important to me. The therapeutic relationship should be meaningful 100% and it should be safe enough to do difficult work. But the relationship isn't supposed to become the thing that holds you together. It should help you practice doing that yourself. That's the whole point. So I'll leave you with two questions to end out today. The first is where we started. If the thing that makes you feel valuable disappeared tomorrow tomorrow, excuse me, would you still know who you are? Okay, let me say that again. If the thing that makes you feel valuable disappeared tomorrow, would you still know who you are? That's the first question. Sit with that one, journal that one. That's a good journal. And the second is a little bit harder. Is therapy helping you build a life you can navigate without your therapist? Or has your therapist simply become one person you need in order to know that you're okay? The goal isn't to stop caring what other people think. It really isn't. It's to stop requiring the verdict before you what know what to think of yourself. Contingent self-worth really makes us a continual victim or prisoner within our life. So I've written a blog to go along with this as well. I hope this was helpful today. Have you outsourced your self-worth? Have you? What is contingent self-worth? I've explained it to you. I gave you 10 points. Sit with those questions, answer those questions, and listen. If you're like, oh gosh, okay, I have contingent self-worth, go to your therapist. Have an honest conversation with them. It'll go a long way. That brings us to the end of this episode. Thanks for joining me. I hope you learned some tools that can equip you to untangle your mind and untangle your life. If you're curious about working with me for your anxiety or trauma, head on over to my website at untangledmind.net to connect with me. If you enjoyed the show, please rate and review me on your podcast listening platform and share it with your friends and family. As always, thanks so much for listening to me, Piper Harris with the Untangled Mind Podcast. I'll talk with you next time.