Untangled Mind™, LLC hosted by Piper Harris
Untangled Mind™, LLC hosted by Piper Harris
Ep. 30 All Hail Deference!
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Hey there, and welcome to Piper Harris Coaching, a podcast where I share how you can embrace your poema, your masterfully created purpose. Poema is a foundational anchor that defines your character, directs your decisions, supports your growth, provides protection and healing, engages resilience, and serves those in your lives. Harnessing your uniquely created poema and putting it into action is necessary for healing, actualizing goals, and living a full and content life. We will dive into topics surrounding positive psychology, shifting your mindset, and how to overcome behaviors that are holding you hostage. My name is Piper Harris, and I use my 20 years of experience as a mental health counselor, coach, business owner, mother, and wife and dig into deep and complex issues that you are facing and empower you to overcome and harness the courage to chase after your best life. Thanks for joining us today, and welcome to Piper Harris Coaching Podcast. Um, today we're talking about something that I feel is uh very prevalent in our society, and it's all hail deference. So let's jump into this right now. All hail deference. So who are you giving deference to? Why and what? What's behind it? And who are you expecting deference from? So, deference, what is deference? It's this this word that really can be summarized by saying you hold someone in high esteem, you respect and um esteem someone due to their um their leadership, authority, superiority, or it's an ingratiating. I liked this, Miriam Webster said this, an ingratiating regard to others' wishes, to others' wishes. So we live in a society, don't we, where we have been um trained to show deference to those in authority. So I think a lot of times um we don't want to subject ourselves to deference. Sorry, that's my dog breaking through the doors. We don't want to subject ourselves to someone's authority and give them deference because maybe we don't respect them. And I think that's something that is deference gets intertwined with. It gets intertwined with that because you give someone deference due to their leadership per se position, excuse me, then that means we have to respect them. And I don't necessarily agree with that. I don't necessarily agree with that, but I want to kind of get into this a little bit. So deference to authority, again, is placed on those that are in positions of authority. We go to the office, we have somebody that is above us, we give deference to them based on their authority, based on their wisdom, based on the position that they've been put in ahead of us, above us. Now, that doesn't mean that you are less than. That doesn't mean that you're less than. Now, we all know individuals that have been put in that position of authority and they have the expectation of deference. And to them, they want you, they want you to ingratiate yourself and fulfill all their wishes and desires. So, what I would venture to say, what I would venture to say is that we are living in an ever pervasive society of deference due to social media. We have people that go to social media and they're showing deference to these individuals that are sharing their reels and sharing their knowledge, right? They're watching, they're comparing, they're doing all of these things. While you're also having individuals that are on social media and they're expecting deference, I'm going to share with you my wisdom and knowledge. Therefore, you should follow me. Now, I don't necessarily think that it's a bad thing to want to share your wisdom, your knowledge, your information, but it's that why behind that sharing of information and the expectation from that sharing of information. So I think we live in a culture of reinforcement. I do. I think we live in a culture where we are reinforcing this thought of ingratiating ourselves to others or others expecting that deference to them. And it's being reinforced in titles and positions and thoughts and behaviors and social media. You know, working with clients, we talk about a lot of different things. And amongst some of those things is we talk about boundary setting, we talk about assertiveness, how to set boundaries and speak kindly but assertively. And this can be really difficult for a lot of individuals. And frankly, this is something that I'd had to work on in my own life. Because a lot of times we are raised in environments, all of us are as children, we're raised to show deference to our parents, to our teachers, which in a healthy, loving environment, that deference comes from a place of love, of obedience, of I want to do this. However, there's other environments where we are trained to show a deference to an individual that holds that deference as a tool of manipulation in our lives. So therefore, these individuals grow into adults that are showing consistent deference at the cost of themselves. And what happens is they come to me and they're hurt, they're taken advantage of all the time. They are the givers of the world. And we have to understand why they've been trained to be givers, how that came. There's a wonderful, beautiful side of being a giving person, but there's also a very ugly side that was reinforced in them and their behavior. And it's following them throughout their adult lives. And how do we get to the middle? How do we compromise where we can say, I'm going to choose to give you deference, I'm going to choose to give you these things because you know you're in a place of authority, but not at the cost of whom I am, who I am. And I think it's just so very important. I'm seeing it so much in everyday life. And the reason why I'm kind of harping on the social media is um, you know, I'm on social media and I've had to cut back uh a ton and a couple of different reasons why. If you've ever started your business on social media, you're always told you have to be on there 15 times a day, you have to spend an ad budget, you have to do all these things. And I did it for years. I mean, you should see the spreadsheets in the folders full of information I have when I did this. And what I noticed is as I was doing this, and if I wasn't receiving the clicks, the likes, the purchases, whatever it was, I got angry. Why aren't they showing me deference? Why aren't they hearing my wisdom? Why aren't they falling on their knees, ingratiating themselves to my wisdom? Right. But then on the other side, too, what I found myself within the social media world is watching other people and giving individuals, I don't know who they are, I don't know their moral character, I don't know anything about except what they put on film, where I could watch them. And I found myself giving them deference, ingratiating myself to the way they were teaching, the way they were telling me to run my business. And it really dawned on me was with the previous company almost three years ago, when I started noticing myself do that with the woman that was the face of this company. And I'll never forget that we uh had to go to a business trip, and I had been giving deference to this woman, and we got to spend time in her home. And what I saw was a human being. In fact, what I saw was a human being that was totally different from behind the camera. What I saw was a human being that, you know, she knew her stuff in a limited capacity, but what I had done is given deference to her, and it was at the cost of what I knew, at the cost of what my values were, at the cost of allowing the strengths and beauty that God gave me to shine through. And it was a huge moment. I'll never forget. We were sitting at her big dining room table, and I really can't tell you what it was. Excuse me, there's a hair in my microphone. I don't know what exactly took place, but I remember I offered to make everyone lunch. And keep in mind the deference I had put on this woman is she was all powerful, she was all knowing. Oh, she had so much money and da-da-da-da-da. And I'm in this beautiful home. And I said, Well, how about I make lunch? Made everybody lunch, and I sat there and watched her eat her lunch, her sandwich. I mean, it's just a sandwich, that's all it was. And the lack of acknowledgement that somebody else is in your home offering to make a sandwich. There was no recognition of um she did something nice in my home. And I guess that's just my ideas of what a host should be and what a host shouldn't be. But what I recognized in that moment is my act of deference to her, ingratiating myself to her at the cost of myself, created, reinforced a behavior that what I saw starkly in contrast to what I thought this person was was someone that was rude, someone that was um not the person I thought they were. And it was just this like this this this the scales had fallen from my eyes. And I thought, oh my gosh, it's not just on this individual that I was giving deference to. I reinforced this individual's thought that she should have deference given to her. And I think that this is just so prevalent right now. So, you know, I read a quote once and it said to me, this is really interesting quote. It said, um, people who expect deference, people who expect deference resent civility. Let's say that again. Hear that again. People who expect deference, okay, being treated better than resent civility. So why is that? And I'm thinking about this, and I'm wondering if this is something that you're experiencing in your life. The expectation of individuals of this deference is, I believe, in conjunction with the assumption that they have greater authority, greater wisdom, and greater power. And nobody likes to feel that way. And listen, before I start pointing out the speck in your eye, I'm gonna talk about the log in mine. Okay. I am not free of the expectation of deference. Okay. So for example, I ran into a woman and we were getting to know each other, and she asked, you know, what are you doing? I said, Oh, I'm, you know, I'm finishing graduate school to be a counselor. And she goes, Oh, I'm a counselor too. I'm like, oh, awesome. So we start talking and I start learning more about her. And I realize that she is not a uh mental health counselor in training. She's gained certifications. I just recognize that we weren't, we were talking about similar things, but it wasn't the same thing. And let me tell you, I felt, I felt that welling up of my hackles raised. Like, wait a second, show me deference. I am working so hard to be a clinical mental health counselor. What you're talking about is not what I'm doing. And I felt it, I felt this thing well up in me. And I'm telling you it was ugly. And I swallowed it down so quickly because I thought, hold up, hold up. Are you trying to force your wisdom, your authority, and a power on this woman? And why? Why am I feeling this need for deference? And I had to reflect on it. So I want to ask you, how many times have you either been in a conversation with someone where they assume the least of you, or they actually don't even think about you, they just talk of themselves? Or how many times, and be honest with yourself, have you been in a situation and you had the expectation of deference? And not just because you were placed in a position of leadership, because listen, and this is my problem with individuals that are placed placed in a position of I hate the word leadership, authority, because they lack being a leader. They say, no, no, no, no, watch me, I do it all right. And what they do is they just they're at the front and they're wagging their finger at people rather than saying, I'm gonna lead with all of you. How, how can I support you? How can I lead you? You have strengths I don't possess, so how can we use those? That's a leader. So the deference I'm talking about is those people that force it on you because they see themselves in a position of power and authority. So think about that. How many times have you been in a conversation where someone assumes less than you, they were expecting deference from you, or conversely, you're expecting deference from them. And this is a hard conversation because a lot of us don't want to talk about our ugliness, do we? None of us want to talk about how ugly we are. We want to talk about how everybody else is ugly. And I think that there are opportunities when we feel that thing in us that's that's mad at somebody for us treating that way. There's an opportunity for us to step back and reflect and say, okay, what's going on? What's going on here? So I want to go back to when I was talking about certain clients that come to me and we're we're learning how to be kind and assertive at the same time, and that we learn certain things from childhood into adulthood. And, you know, everything is reinforced. Everything is reinforced. Our belief system, our beliefs of ourselves are reinforced. And so if you have a belief that has been reinforced and it's untrue, and it's untrue, but you it's been reinforced because of your perpetuating a behavior that was um expected of you, that belief that you might have been taught or told from a very young age is following you, and thus that's making you this individual that's constantly giving deference to everybody else. And it hurts and it breaks you down. And I'm telling you, I've had so many women come to me talking about this, talking about, you know, I don't know how to share with someone that what they're doing isn't okay. And and they they worry, they ruminate on, well, what what will this individual say about me if I stand up for myself? And those are all valid questions, and they're obviously rooted in fear. And it's again because what we've been taught is if we stand for ourselves, if we kindly and assertively state our boundaries with someone, and we aren't expecting deference from them. What we're expecting, and this is the difference, we are expecting mutual respect, mutual respect, deference takes away that mutual respect. You're a human, I'm a human. The civility goes out the window, and that's what I see deference does. Now I'll say from a biblical worldview, Christian perspective, the one and only that deserves our def deference is the Lord. Period. That's it. And if we could focus on this one being that has it right all the time, it takes our humanity, our selfishness, our ugliness, our needs that we're placing on others away. And we're saying, I'm gonna take or I'm gonna receive all that I need. So I no longer require the deference of others because I am giving it to the one true God, and He is therefore fulfilling me with everything else that I'm really searching for and I'm lacking. But a lot of people are incapable of reflecting and seeing those behaviors, those situations. So, you know, I believe that we're living in this society of deference giving. I do. I believe we live in a society of deference giving. And what deference does, and this is something else that I read, what deference does is in the way for us to break free of our giving it unknowingly and at the cost of ourselves or expecting it at the cost of civility is through intimacy, is through reflection. And so I read this quote by William Sherstone. He said, Deference shrinks and withers upon the approach of intimacy, just like a sensitive plant that's been touched. Now, think about that when I am with an individual that has the expectation, for example, I was with another uh situation and there was a woman, and she rubbed me the wrong way. If I'm being honest, she rubbed me the wrong way. The way in which she spoke was lacking in true humility and authenticity. And what her words betrayed was lots of I statements. I this, I this, I this, I this. But then this kind of false humility that went into it. And it rubbed me the wrong way. And in the same air of the way she was speaking, she had the expectation of deference, and it rubbed me the wrong way. But I believe the way to shrink deference is to invite intimacy, invite um humility and reflection. So if I were to ever have an opportunity with this woman to have a conversation with her, it would be learning more about her, also sharing about me and kindly asserting, oh, I let me share about myself. I I I've loved enjoying hearing about you, but I'd love to share you another perspective with you. Because it the problem with individuals that have an expectation of deference is that they are feeding a need. So remember, I asked you, whom are you giving deference to or expecting deference from? Whom are you expecting that from and why? What is it that's driving this behavior? And all of that is a part about intimately knowing of ourselves, intimately understanding that we are driving our hopes, our needs, our desires from something out here. So then we have this expectation of deference from individuals. And I'm telling you, I guarantee you, this woman did not feel deference from me. I didn't give her anything, but she didn't receive deference. And I can tell you in future or in the next, you know, couple of times I've been around her, she won't make eye contact, she doesn't want anything to do with me, and that's not about me. But I chose in that moment, I am not giving this woman deference. I'm not giving her deference. I'll listen, I'll get to know her, but I'm not giving her deference. One individual, one individual, which is my God, is the only one that will receive deference. And I had to invite reflection into myself because she rubbed me so wrong, and think to myself, what is that expectation of deference? What is being reinforced not only in society culturally, but what was reinforced in her life? What was reinforced in her career choice to have this air of expectation of deference? And conversely, so many clients. I have a dear client, and uh she is one of the most giving individuals I have ever met. And it's always at the cost of herself, she's always giving deference. Too. And I can tell you, she's exhausted and she's just beaten down. She's just beaten down because those behaviors, those thoughts were reinforced. They were taught, they were trained, and they've been reinforced because she continued a behavior that was taught and trained in her. And she's continued it into adulthood. So what's happening now? She is ingratiating herself to everybody else, to everybody else, she's giving deference at the cost of herself. It's it's so painful to see. And I think we've all been there. I know I've had situations in my life where I'm like, why? Why did I ingratiate myself to that individual? I mean, I used to say for many, many years, I'm a reformed people pleaser. And I used to say for many, many years, oh, it's okay if they need to feel better than me. It's not a big deal. That's about them. You know, I can play this game. What I was saying was, is I can make myself smaller to make them feel bigger. And what I've realized is that is not a quality, healthy relationship. It's about the mutual the mut why can't I say the word? It's about being mutually respectful, finding those commonalities that we love in one another, finding difference, but respecting the difference. It's not about what I've said this to other people, it's not about getting rid of our values and our belief systems just because someone's different. But you cannot give deference to someone at the cost of yourself. You cannot force deference on others because you lack something in yourself. Deference giving has become this weird, ugly, I don't know, ugly thing that is just so pervasive. And I see it on social media, I see it in the younger generation, Gen Z. I see it that if you don't comply, if you don't believe me, if you don't go along with me, if you don't show me deference, then I'm coming after you. And in it's something that is just so pervasive. And I do believe social media has perpetuated this idea of I'm gonna receive, I'm gonna receive, I'm gonna receive deference because I'm gonna put all these things out there on social media. And if I don't, then I'm gonna, you know, up my ante. And then at the same time, what it's doing is it's stealing from individuals that need to find their values, need to value themselves, need to break the reinforcements that they've had in their lives and perpetuated against them so that they can embrace, they can embrace and unlove themselves. I just deference, this word deference is just this thing that's just been rattling around in my head. And why do we do these things? Why? And I think again, because we lack the humility to recognize that we are not the ones in control. We think we can control everything, we can we can, you know, uh plan out our lives, we can plan out our social media, we can plan out what we're gonna say, and we we are hoping to gain something from that that should never be something that we should gain from that. Does that make sense? We're trying to turn something into something it's not supposed to be. I mean, you go through quotes about deference, and it really, I mean, even there was one I think it was from Benjamin Franklin, and he was talking about deference and that you know, deference given to man is so very important. But he was talking from a place of having that mutual respect, giving deference to each individual. It doesn't mean that we're getting rid of our values and our beliefs, but we are holding you in high esteem because you are a human being. You were created in Christ's image. Period. You don't have to talk the same, you don't have to look the same, you don't have to act the same. Giving deference, what it used to mean, what I believe it used to mean, is it's this thing about allowing people to feel connectedness, allowing people to feel a part of, allowing people to feel um, you know, a part of a community. And this deference thing has just become so I don't know, ugly, ugly. And it it's this thing that I think is something that people need to really reflect on. They really need to reflect on. So I know that, you know, um, in these conversations, I'm sharing my faith with you. And I do believe when we are able to fully give our deference to Jesus, that is when we can be released from these things. We can be released from always giving deference to other people because we can find that healing and um that hope that he can give us rather than you know, um falling prey to how we were taught. And and, you know, we can break free of that. I also think that when you put someone, Jesus, in that position of deference, you're you're giving that need to someone else to hold such a high esteem. And what it also does for the other individual that is using um expectation of deference to fill a void, if they're able, excuse me, if they are able to then give it to Christ, and that releases them to uh from filling a void um through something that's never was theirs to fill in the first place, ever, ever. So in Romans um chapter 13, it talks about that we should subject ourselves to governing authorities, and I still believe this. I am subject to governing authorities. I have to pay my taxes, I have to pay my insurance, I have to, you know, do all those things. I'm subject to authorities, okay? But what I need to recognize, and what's what is said in Romans is their authority, it only comes from God and God alone. They are appointed by God. So that's another perspective. I think a lot of people that have the expectation of deference is you are not in the position, you are not in this position by anything other than by appointment, regardless if you believe in God or not. You are there because you have been given it by appointment. God is not giving you deference, he's appointed you to this position of authority, a governing authority. But God overall is the governing authority. And so, and it also goes on to talk about that whoever resists authority resists the ordinance of God. So, what I would say for those individuals that have this expectation of deference is don't forget that there are other things in play, that there's other ordinances, and that by forcing your need on other individuals to feel that deference, you're you're resisting what you've been divinely appointed to do, you're resisting that. And and that is not where you should be. You're seeking to fulfill yourself through your own desires. But I would just challenge you and urge you to consider how much freer would you feel if you gave total deference to the Lord and expected that his will is what is in ultimate authority, and that would take away that need for you constantly looking for fulfillment in something else. I, you know, it's hard. It's hard when I talk about these subjects in that um I see pain with clients, I have frustrations and annoyances in my life. I want to bring techniques that would be found that I would be teaching different clients. I want to do all of those things, and I also want to share my love of the Lord with you because the reason that I continue to grow, the reason that I swallow down my forcing, my expectation of deference on someone is because I have something greater that has authority over my life, and it speaks to me and says, watch it, Piper. Watch it. This is not for you to do. You don't belong in this position of authority. I did not give you this position of authority over this human being. And so it's hard because it's like, how do I share all of these thoughts? And it they just kind of rattle around in my head. And I don't know if when you listen to me, if you're thinking, oh my gosh, she's jumping from one tangent to another, to another, to another, to another. But they are all interconnected because my faith is the foundation in everything that I teach you, everything that I work to um include with my work with clients, regardless if they believe in Christianity or not, I am constantly uh looking at techniques and how I'm filtering them through scripture and through questioning the Lord, like, is this something that I should do with them? So this is something that's an aspect of my life. And I just firmly believe I can teach you a million techniques, a million techniques. But until you relinquish that need of fulfillment, because once you once you release that need and you say, okay, God's the only one and He fulfills it, it gives you the ability to step back from yourself and recognize where you're you're placing yourself above others, or you're placing yourself under others, and you are so deserving of difference, you are deser deserving of having an authority over you. And it's funny because a lot of people bucket that like I don't want authority of God over me because people take it the wrong way. What it is, is it's freedom giving, it's freedom giving. I give deference to one individual, and that is God. I have to fight myself when I have the expectation of deference. Then I have to ask myself, why am I feeling that way? Why am I feeling that way with this person should give me deference? Well, there's an insecurity in there, something, and I got to dig in there and reflect on it. Or why am I giving this person deference when inevitably I'm gonna see behind that curtain and go, oh my gosh, this is not the human being I thought they were. Why do we give deference away? What are we seeking to fulfill? So I think the most important thing when it comes to deference giving and even deference expectation is that we have to practice, we have to practice recognizing um why we're doing those things. That's the most important thing. I know why statements can tend to really set us off. A lot of people don't like why. I used to teach the five whys. And um, I I kind of morphed it to the five what's, you know. Um, but regardless, you got to dig deep. You got to do the work. Why are you having the expectation of deference? Why is it that I didn't give you deference and that set you on your ear? Why? What is it about that? What about me not giving your deference is so assaultive to your being? And then also asking yourself, five wives, five what's whatever you want to do, why am I giving this person deference when I can feel within myself that is not what I should be doing? Why am I afraid to say otherwise? Where did this start? What's being reinforced in me? And those questions have to be asked. What I want to say is to everyone is you are enough. You are enough. You don't have to keep striving and seeking deference from everyone. If you need more, you're looking in the wrong spot. And I want to say to individuals that hand out deference and kindness like it's candy. You are of such a sweet, kind heart, but it should never be at the cost of who Christ made you to be. You are enough. You are you have a choice. You know, this weekend my pastor was talking about people that um choose to be Christians, and it's this weird mystery that takes place. Either, well, we're supposed to choose God, right? But God chose us. So how does that happen? Then it's just this weird mystery. But you have a choice, you have a choice to believe that you are chosen. Does that make sense? You have a choice to embrace that you are chosen and therefore releasing yourself from seeking deference, from seeking fulfillment from others. You have a choice to accept that you are chosen, that you are enough. And by accepting that choice of being chosen, opens yourself up. It really does. It opens yourself up to reflect on your behaviors, how behaviors are being reinforced, and how you can break free of those. So, for those of you that are used to um handing out deference, reformed people pleaser here. Here are some things that you can do. Practice. Practice um kindly stating, you know, boy, that really upset me. Or um, you know, give me a few minutes to consider that, I'll get back to you. Practice ways of setting those boundaries before you speak, before you give deference. Because as an individual that has taught, been taught, and reinforced throughout their life to constantly give deference, you automatically do whatever you can to make that individual feel better. And this is what I'll say about you um is that you will attract those that have the expectation of deference. You attract them because they need someone like you to feed what's missing in them. So practice, use I statements, focus on a specific behavior rather than making it personal against them. Okay. Um say no. Um, you can cushion it with a compliment, but I feel like when you're working with individuals that have the expectation they need the compliment. So I think saying no is okay. But if that's uncomfortable, you can cushion it with a compliment. Have one consistent message. Um, the consistent message might be something like, you know, I'm having to take some time for myself right now. No, I can't do that right now. I'm taking some time for myself. Whatever it is, have a consistent message, but you have to stick to those boundaries. Um, don't apologize and don't be self-effacing. I think that's part of what that woman that really rubbed me the wrong way is this is false humility. Um, I think that was something that was probably reinforced in her life. So don't do that. Um, you have nothing to apologize for. This is about being assertive and kind. Um and speak calmly, you know. And if you feel like you can't speak calmly or really fearful, take a beat. You know, I teach my couples that when they get in a heated argument, take 15, take 15, take two, two hours. You need to come back to it, but you need to cool off. And so if you need that, then that's what you do. Um, and for those of you, I don't know if you're uh self-reflective enough to recognize your expectation of deference, but if you are, if you have a niggling within your soul of um being this person, because guess what? All of us are. So, I mean, all of us should have a little bit of a conviction with this talk today, is hold on to that little niggling that you have right now and ask yourself, what am I trying to fill? What am I trying to fill? The most insecure people I know are the ones that are so robust in speaking about how awesome they are. And I do believe that there's been a reinforcement in them having to claw and strive to receive deference because they were not given to them. And so that's why they are the way they are. And so for everybody else too, extend them kindness. Um, we all have the things that we battle, all of us. And if we could all come together and show kindness and compassion under the authority of one God, man, life would just be so much better. But it also means that we all, we all have to invite the intimacy of Christ into our life, the intimacy of conversations with someone like me, for me to hold up this mirror to you and saying, Why have why do you have this expectation of deference from individuals in your life? What was it about you exercising authority over this individual was so important for you? You need that mirror of me saying, These are reinforced behaviors that you were taught when you were a child. These are not whom you are. That's who you've been created to be by someone else. You can release that, you can release that and adopt a new creation. So it's a lot. So all hail deference. All hail deference. I don't know where you're at when it comes to this discussion. I would be very curious to hear your thoughts on how you see deference giving. I'm sure I have uh poked some of you, and that's okay. That's what this is about. This is about having those tough conversations and putting that mirror up against ourselves as well. I don't just talk to my clients about what's going on with them. In fact, most of the time they're a mirror in my own lives, and I have to sit there and reflect on my own behaviors, my own thoughts, my own reinforced behaviors and thoughts. And and um, you know, it's it's for me too. So, but I would love to hear your thoughts on this culture of deference. Deference. I think it used to be, it was supposed to be a thing of mutual respect and regard. And I think we've lost that along the way. And I think the reason we've lost it along the way is we have lost sight of the one true authority in our lives, period. So thanks for joining me today. I hope you are well. Go enjoy your pumpkin spice latte, and I will talk to you next time. Thank you for joining me today on the Piper Harris Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please be sure to share it on your social media, share it with your friends and your family. And if you have some more questions after listening to today's episode, head on over to piperharris.net and you can schedule a time for you and I to continue a conversation where I hope to explain to you how you can find your poema, harness it, and find healing and vitality in your life. Thanks again. I appreciate you, and you'll hear from me soon in future episodes.