If you find it offensive for a therapist to talk about money, this show isn't for you. I believe in both compassionate care and making a living. Compassion and capitalism can coexist, and in my practice, they do. Hi, I'm Piper Harris, and welcome to season six of the Untangled Mind podcast, where we cut through the mental clutter to help you untangle life's toughest challenges. I'm a data-driven mental health therapist based in the suburbs of Atlanta, Georgia, specializing in anxiety, trauma, and grief. I use Third Wave CBT. I offer practical, no-nonsense tools to help you untangle your mind and take meaningful action. So today I want to pull back the curtain. I've been told more times than I can count, wow, I don't do that for all my clients. And honestly, that's the problem. Good therapy has been cheapened by passive models and mass market platforms. It's become something people try on instead of something they commit to. This isn't talk therapy for comfort, it's therapy for change. And in this episode, I'm sharing what you're really paying for when you work with a therapist like me and why I don't apologize for charging a premium. Hello, hello. Thank you so much for joining me. So before we start talking about um why therapy um isn't cheap or it shouldn't be, and we talk about fees, I really want to touch on something if I have therapists that are listening, or even those of you that really don't know how the therapeutic world works. Um, so there's been this real growing push uh for mental health counselors in particular. So whether that's an LPC in Georgia, um sometimes they call them um, gosh, clinical mental health counselors. There's all these different acronyms, which is very confusing. But a lot of times what I'm I'm hearing is that there's this demand to be recognized as part of a broader medical community. And there's a couple of different reasons why with this. Namely, it's so that the insurance providers will actually provide the counselors in turn better pay. So I think the recent stat I read was like mental health therapists hadn't gotten a raise from these insurance providers like Aetna or Blue Cosh or Blue Shield in over 30 years. And so it's really frustrating for those of us because I mean, we all have master's degrees. We have to go through a residency program. It's taken me five years just to get to the full licensure point. So this is not just a walk in the park, and yet we're being um underpaid, grossly underpaid by these insurance companies. Um, and it's because they don't see us as part of the medical community. So here's the thing. On some level, I totally get that we should be seen as part of the medical community. I absolutely understand that because we deal with deep human pain, and in many, many cases, we are the first responders for people's emotional crisis. But here's the truth is that we can't continue to demand this recognition as medical professionals if you don't run in your practice like one. So, what I see so often, I've talked about this over and over and over again, is that too many times therapists demand to be seen as these medical professionals, yet they have no data to show that they're objectively helping an individual. So if they're not using structured assessments, tracking outcomes, or even applying these evidence-based frameworks, then how are they gonna prove that they're worthy of, you know, having this title being part of the medical community? And additionally, with that, how are they holding themselves accountable to a certain standard or frankly, a client accountable to those standards? Um, you really can't demand a title or a fee that implies that you have clinical precision precision if you don't do that. You just can't. And so you're not doing the medical work if you're not doing that. You're not actually facilitating anything other than a conversation. And I know a lot of people that are listening to this are gonna be just, you know, rolling their eyes, getting angry. You can be angry all you want. But again, if we want to be seen as different in the field and we want to be treated with more respect, then this is what you need to do. So it's really important that we understand number one, there's really no real standard for therapists in this field. There really isn't. It's that's why there's 25,000 different approaches to therapy. Um, and there's very few that have been clinically validated, that they've been watched. Now, listen, I do CBT. Oh my gosh, you should read the stuff people say about CBT clinicians. It's it's pretty amazing. Um, they most people hate CBT. Here's the reason why. Number one, CBT people actually don't really focus on what it is. They're like, well, it's just cognitive. I've had um so many therapists say to me, Well, I had to start doing something else because the cognitive approach just didn't work with the client. And it's like, did you miss the B in the CBT, the behavioral, which includes um exposure therapy? Did you not recognize that CBT has grown to be more of a third-wave approach, which means we are more holistic and inclusive? So we're working at, you know, ACT, DBT, um, mindfulness-based um CBT. I mean, there's so much in CBT, but people hate it. They hate CBT because it gives you parameters. And what I'm seeing more and more in this field is nobody wants to be held accountable. And it's something that actually really sickens me. And then they kick and scream and say, well, I should be paid more. And it's like, well, okay, you know, you which way you can't have both things. Does that make sense? So all that to say, um, we have to ask, we really do have to ask, what are you offering that actually validates the value of your service? Because frankly, with these clinicians, it's if your model is just like, let's talk and see where it goes, that's not number one medically grounded, and nor should it be priced that way. That's just how I feel about it. So I really want to talk about today. I'm really being frank about um the cost of therapy. I had a client who I've had her um, gosh, over probably almost two years. I just think the world of her. And we were talking um about some just changes um that we're seeing in just um the landscape, the professional landscape. And she's considering maybe a job change, whatever. And we're just talking about things are expensive right now. And um it was so funny. She said to me, she's like, Well, it's not like you who's just like raking in the money. And I literally guffawed out loud. And I explained to her, I said, so many people don't understand. You don't go into therapy to make a bazillion dollars. Now, I think I can make some money being a therapist, but um I think that there's this misconception that that rate that somebody pays to come into me, I get every bit of it. And so I really think it's really important for me to share what that looks like. I did um a YouTube on while never taking um insurance, and I actually broke it down with specific, specific numbers. So you can always go back and watch that. But I really want to start with that misconception that people think that I take the whole therapy fee. Okay. So my current therapy fee is 175, and that's for our 50 minutes together. Okay. So, but that's not really the reality. Let's talk about that. Why? Number one is it 45 to 50 minutes? Well, because just because you're not in that therapy room for me with an for an hour, that extra 10 or 15 minutes at the end is for where I have to, by law, write clinical notes. Now, some therapists I know, and they kind of joke about it, which again don't demand to be paid better and be part of medical community if you can't keep up with it. But some people just they joke that they don't do their clinical notes. I'm not one of those. I get them done the day of, but that hour includes that time. It it absolutely includes that time. But here's the thing what you're actually paying for in that 175. So that's pay, that's paying for the time I spend preparing for each individual session. That's the time that you pay for with me reviewing your assessments every single month, uh, the notes, progress markers, all of those things. It also includes, like I said, the clinical documentation. Okay, so all the notes, all the updates to your monthly plans. Then we go to the monthly assessments, and that's where I track what we're doing and not just how you feel, but how you're functioning. It includes my ongoing education, which I have to do by law. So I have to invest in continuing education credits, I have to invest in training, I have to invest in clinical supervision. These are not cheap. These are not cheap. We have a certain amount of um clinical uh education that we have to do every two years. Already for me, and I've only been out of my master's program for two years. Already for me, I'm about $1,600 in. $1,600. And you're like, well, you chose to be in this industry, Piper. So, you know, this is this is just part and parcel. You're absolutely right. But I have to be able to eat and pay my bills too. So I want you to understand it is a ton of work. And now here's the thing, too. What I said before is that this passive model that we see of people just kind of nodding their heads and listening to people sit on the couch and then they shoo them out. I find it really disgusting. There is a time and a place for that. But if that's all you're doing, I just I find it gross. My model is definitely not passive. We're actively engaged in conversations. Before a client ever comes in, I'm going through their chart. I'm reminding myself what we went through the week before. Oftentimes I have to go through and see the homework that they've submitted. I go through that, I make my own notes so I can make sure that I'm discussing with them. Maybe we're going into an EMDR session, so I'm preparing for that. Maybe I'm going into more of a prolonged exposure session, so I'm preparing for that. Each client has different needs. So one client might need the Theratapper. One client, I need to ensure that my weighted blanket has been laundered so it's ready for that blank, that client. One client, you know, I'm telling you, it is different for every single client. And I refuse to step into this passivity of counseling. So there's a lot of work in there. Additionally, a lot of people don't understand this about me, is that I do actually develop a treatment plan. If you're listening, ask your counselor for a treatment plan. Guarantee you they haven't built one. They're like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I have it up here in my head. I would say 90%, if not higher, of um clinicians do not hand you an actual plan. I do. Why? Because I want you to see number one, this is not passive. I have expectation of you working with me. You came to me to resolve something into gain tools. Got it. We're going into this as a partnership. This is how I think that we're going to approach it. The treatment plan, with my treatment plan, it goes over as much as I can. It defines what your problem is. It defines your long-term goals and your short-term objectives. Excuse me. We go through this. I tell my clients each time, this is a living, breathing document. We can change this as we go. Keep in mind too, when I'm working with a client, I am constantly looking back at what did we say in the treatment plan that they agreed to? Have I gotten them there? Why or why not? One of the other things I do with my treatment plans is they literally come in for their intake session, their very first section, and they get homework that day. And the main homework I say to them, there's a big blank sheet in their treatment plan. It says, How do you define resolved? Here's the thing too. Mental health can be very subjective. And I understand that. I've done my own counseling over the years. But you came to me, we need to define the problem because if you don't or define the outcomes, the result, what what do you how do you say this is resolved, excuse me? If we don't have our goalposts, you're gonna always feel like you're failing. You're also going to have something to work toward, and it's something I hold you accountable to. So I've had people say, well, I want to just feel happy. Oh my gosh, I hate when people say that because I don't believe in happy. Happy is fleeting. If you want contentment, I want to feel contentment. Awesome. What does that look like? How do you act? How do you wake up in the morning? How does your house look? How does your professional life look? Um, how are you in relationship? These are the things that you need to define out. And I am telling you, every time a client comes in, they're like, oh my gosh, I had no, I don't even know what I want. Then why are you here wasting your money? We need to we need to define what you're working toward. So again, I do treatment plans. In addition to that, I've designed two workbooks. I'm getting the last two figured out. It's a lot of work. I have workbooks that go along with the way, the approach that I take to ensure that they have as many tools as possible. And in some cases, someone might not necessarily fit exactly for my trauma workbook or exactly for my anxiety workbook. So I make my own program for them. This includes different worksheets. This includes different tracking because it needs to be that way. Now, this is what I want to say. I've had one client say to me that was on here, on for a little bit and it ended up not feeling like I was a good um fit for them. Said, well, I don't want all those things. I don't want the tracking. I don't want the workbook. I don't want the homework. Okay, then why'd you choose me? And I had to say that. Well, I understand that's not what you want, but you're the one who called me. You're the one who said, I definitely want this kind of approach. Because believe me, when I talk to people, I'm like, this is my expectation. If you can't do it, I'm not a good fit. Find somebody else. And that's the thing where this passive idea, this idea of passive counseling and this cheapened rates for these massive platforms for counseling has really deteriorated what I think therapists are called to. We're called to help you learn new tools. We're called to help you utilize those tools, and we're called to bring about change. If you don't have anything in place other than just sitting there nodding your head, counselors, how are you doing any of that? I just, I don't understand it. So all that to be said, the therapy fee is not what you think it is. So, say my $175, I explained that that goes through my CE's clinical documentation, my monthly assessments that I do. It goes towards all the treatment planning, all of those things. And here's the other part of it, the business reality. 30% of each fee goes to taxes. And so another 30 to 35% goes to overhead. So, do you see what I'm saying? What I keep from that 175 is a fraction of what you think it is. And so when that sweet um client of mine said that to me and I explained that to her, she's like, oh my gosh, I had no idea. I'm like, yeah. Now this is not me complaining. This is not me complaining about the fees. This is not me complaining about people not understanding. If you don't want to pay my fees, that's fine. But I want to clarify that if you want a serious clinician that has systems, accountability, and outcomes, then that fee should support your work with the person that you're working with. If they don't, and they say, I still want my 175 fee, and you say, Well, what does that include? They're like, oh, it includes my insurance that I have to pay for every year, includes my continuing education, by the way, if they do it. A lot of times they don't, and they just hope they don't get audited. Um, and like, yep, that's all it is. I can't tell you how many therapists I've talked to that are in private practice, like, oh yeah, I forgot about taxes. I just, I just find it grossly incompetent and I just it it grosses me out. So, all that to be said, my fee is more, but this is what I I provide. And I can tell you that there's other therapists that charge a premium. It could be that they've been in the field, you know, 20 years and they have actively worked in this field. So they've written um, you know, research, they've um written books, they've done a lot of different things. They're an expert in their field, which can demand a higher premium. It absolutely can. But you see a lot of these therapists, um, and I guess you could call me this, um, that are younger in the field, they're like, I should just, I should just make this. Now, I'm new in the field because of timing. I'm not new in the field. Um, I've been doing this since 1998, right? It just took me a while to get my master's program. So, anyway, I wanted to clarify the fee structure that when you are going to a therapist, and listen, I have people send me messages, and it's like, I think you would be a great fee fit, but I just want to know how much you charge. I know if somebody sends me that message, they're not serious about working with me. They're not. They're just they're shopping for the cheapest clinician. And frankly, I don't need to work with someone that doesn't value the work that I put in. And listen, all my fees are on my website. So you could have looked that up. But I just, you know, if you're calling the first question out of your mouth mouth is, how much do you charge? Um, I know that you're shopping for cheap. And that's fine. Go to one of these better helps or something, and good luck. Um, okay, so let's talk about, I just said it a little bit about what makes my work different. Obviously, I'm only talking about myself. I'm not talking about other clinicians, but um, why my work is different and why I really buck against this passive counseling. Um, I say all the time to clients or anybody who will listen, I love what I do, but I am grossly embarrassed by my industry. I'm so embarrassed by it. Um, here's the reason why. I specialize in trauma, anxiety, and grief because these issues affect the same core brain systems, truly. So it's the amygdala, the hippocampus, insula, and the prefrontal cortex. There's a lot of different areas of the brain, and you're probably rolling your eyes. Piper, we don't want to hear this, but here's the thing too. If somebody's meddling in your head, right, because that's what counseling is, shouldn't they know what part of the brain they're focused on? I mean, again, this goes back to that demand to be seen as a medical professional. Great. If you don't know what area of the brain you're targeting, then how can I call you a medical professional? Think about that. If I'm meddling in your brain, don't you want somebody to know what they're meddling with? I mean, come on, it makes sense. So I specialize in trauma, anxiety, and grief because it really does look at those core areas of the brain. And that's why I use targeted evidence-based methods using the CBT, the neuropsych, and EMDR. This is why I give you so many assessments, because I'm trying to find out what's going on in the brain. I need to wake up the insula. I need to turn down the amygdala. I need to shift your memory system because it's off track, your hippocampus. I need to understand those things. When I have clinicians talking to me and they just glaze over because they don't know what's going on in the brain, I'm like, oh my gosh, what are you doing? You're gonna hurt someone. It's kind of like um, I used to own a gym, and when I was going through the training, I would see people teaching others to like do a deadlift. And I was like, dear God, please don't let them pick up that weight. They are going to hurt themselves. It's no different than these clinicians meddling around in your head and they don't know the proper form. They don't know how to keep the body safe. It's scary. So also, what makes me different in this field and something that I buck against is that I don't work with everyone. I really tried hard um when I was still, you know, first starting, like into my internships to really niche out. But when you're you're in internship, they really don't want you to do that. My first internship, I worked with everyone, which I understand because I needed to find where I fit best. I already knew. Um, but that's just kind of how they do it. Now, my second internship, I just told them I said, this is the only people I'm working with, period. And they went along with it. Um, but I don't work with ever everyone. Okay, so I've talked about this in my catching flack series. You can read that on my blog. That there's no such thing as a fantastic generalist. There's no such thing. If you need heart surgery, are you gonna go to your GP? No. If you um need to build a house, are you gonna go to Home Depot or are you gonna go to the craft store? I mean, that's what I'm saying is that there's no such thing as a fantastic journalist. Meaning you cannot be a jack of all trades because otherwise it means you're a master of none. If you have, I tell people this a lot that it doesn't, you know, they call me and I say, hey, I don't work with kids or whatever, I tell them, you know, you really need to interview your therapists. I had a friend asking me, hey, what would you suggest? And I said, the best piece of advice I can give you is that looking at psychology today, as that's one of the biggest areas that people um promote their services, I don't for multiple reasons. But anyway, if they list that they do everything under the sun and work with every single population, you need to go the other way. You do, because what you're gonna get is passive therapy, because you cannot. You cannot know how to do everything, not well. So you're just gonna get the passive therapist that's just nodding. Uh-huh. Yeah, tell me more. What does that feel like? Now listen, I say those things too. But if that's all they're doing, you know why. You chose a generalist. They can't master anything. Additionally, why I'm different is I have I only work with adults, typically 30 and up. That's that's it. Um, this year I was talked into working with a teen and it just reaffirmed that this is not the place for me to work. And I've talked about that, why I won't work for teens. Um, and I won't do couples. Oh my gosh, I've tried that. It's like a three-ring circus. I don't want to do it. And so I really am holding fast a couple times. I've been like, maybe I can step into this. I'm telling you this last year, it's just affirmed that I am for adults only, typically 30 and up. Here's the thing I don't take adolescence, I don't take couples, I do not take this failure-to-launch cases. This is so prevalent right now. I have parents calling me, well, my 35-year-old won't get out of my basement. I need you to help me. Um, no, that was your problem. And it started probably 30 years ago. It's not my job to get your kid out of your basement. That was something that you should have been doing. And here's the thing with these failure-to-launch folks, they don't want to do homework. They don't want to do that. I can't tell you how many times I've done consultations and they've told me, yeah, I live in mom and dad's basement. I don't have a job. They're pushing me to be better. And I'm like, okay. And I say to them, okay, well, why do you want to change? Well, they told me to call you. Or this is another one they do. Well, they gave me your phone number. I mean, there's like no skin in the game. And I'll say, well, this is my expectation. There's weekly homework. We're having conversations. Can you do this? And literally 10 out of 10 times, like, yeah, no, I don't think that's for me. So I don't work with people like that. I just don't. Um, and I don't play this codependency game. I have had um clients for years and I love them to death. But they know and they come back, maybe they have booster sessions or whatever to check in to keep them on track and to, you know, goals that they have achieved, just making sure that those tools are being utilized. But I will not sit there and become um this codependent person in enabling their problematic behaviors. In fact, I have let clients go because I saw it going that way. And I know that's shocking to so many people. Like, you can't fire a client. Yes, I can. If I am enabling your problematic behavior, then I am part of the problem. So again, I I really I don't babysit, I don't do that, and I do help people change, but there are parameters. There's absolutely parameters, and that's a part of the reason that I'm different. And I like it that way. Um, so I want to go back to um like the talking model, the passive model. I want to be honest that talking is extraordinarily powerful. Obviously, I'm a therapist, it helps people process pain, grief, and fear. And sometimes just saying something out loud is this massive shift because it's something that you've been holding on to forever and it's just been eating you alive. But talking alone doesn't create transformation. When you've been saying the same thing in the same way or maybe a different way for months on end, then there's something off. And at that point, it's not about expression, it's about avoidance. And that's when I have to ask, or you should ask, or we should all ask, is this about the therapist not doing the job, or are you avoiding the work? I have plenty of clients that are kind of in the middle. They want to come in and it's a release valve. Okay, that's their space to do that. And they'll dabble in the homework. I have some that are like rock stars, they do all their homework, they dig every done. And I'm telling you, those are the ones that don't need me. They they've learned all the tools, they've done all the homework, they're like, this is amazing. I'm so on track. And they pop in like once in a year saying, You're on my mind, just thinking a lot of you, just appreciate you. I mean, like, those are the rock stars and they use the tools and they worked. That's what you can get. Then I have people on the other end that don't do anything with the tools, and that's that's about them. And then I have people kind of in the middle that use the tools and um don't use the tools, if that makes sense. I know that talking is therapeutic. I do it too, and I get that. Okay, but is the reason why you're not reaching goals and every time you leave your therapy session going, what did we even do today? Is that about the therapist? Or is that about you not stepping into the work? Or is it yes, right? I hold myself accountable to my client's goals. Every single client gets structure, strategy, and progress tracking. But I also ask them the hard questions. Did you do your homework? Have you used the tools this week? And if the answer is like, well, no, I didn't do that. Oh, I left my workbook in the car, or da-da-da-da. It's like, okay, that was also your choice. So, what is it about you not choosing to do those things that still makes you feel safer? It's it's avoidance. And that's the thing too, is that I think the therapeutic model has gotten away from that everybody should just feel warm and cozy and it's raining, it's sunshine and unicorns and no therapy should be difficult. It should be. We should celebrate your wins along the way, but come on. If all it is is coddling, again, you're going into enabling problem problematic behavior. If you are therapists, I mean, if you are not doing the work and the tools, okay, why? What's standing in your way? And keep in mind, if you come to me one day and say, you know, I haven't changed, Piper, then I'm gonna say, okay, let's look at what you've done to evoke change. Did you do this? Did you do that? Did you do this? Because listen, I've done it all for you. I've given you all the tools, but if you haven't implemented them, that's not on me. As the saying goes, you can only lead a horse to water. Because here's the thing, if you're having the same conversation every single week, I just don't believe that's therapy. I think it's just repetition. I think that's what it is. You're stuck in that loop, that cognitive loop. Jordan Peterson says, um, you can't have a conversation until the truth is on the table. I'm putting the truth on the table. That's tough. I know that's tough. Where I'm saying, hey, you know, you're annoyed with your clinician's fees, you think you're not going anywhere, nothing's changing. Okay, well, what are you doing to evoke change? We don't have a magic wand. I wish we did. We do not have a magic wand. We can't do something and magically change you. We can use certain techniques like EMDR to slow anxious reactions, fearful reactions. So then you can do the work. But EMDR is not a magic wand. It doesn't take anything away. And if you keep wondering why things aren't changing, you have to ask yourself those tough questions. What am I not choosing? All right, so let's talk about investment. I touched a little bit on what it looks like, say, with my session fee. The truth is that we live in this culture that just throws money at quick fixes. Can we be honest about that? We pay for Botox to smooth out the wrinkles, we'll fill prescription for mood stabilizers, we'll drop 30 bucks or more to have groceries delivered because we're too drained to go to the store. We spend so easily on comfort and convenience, but we hesitate to invest in something that actually transforms us. You have to ask yourself if you're not changing in your current therapeutic relationship, is it because you're you're paying for comfort and convenience? And then ask yourself, is this really comfortable? Has anything changed? What's going on? Therapy is not a quick fix. It's just not. And it's not always convenient. It's an investment in time, in money, in honesty, and in discomfort. I invest in you with the tools, the planning, the assessments, and the accountability. And you invest when you show up fully, when you do the work inside and outside the session. So the cost of therapy isn't just financial, it is person, personal. I know that. But there are so many rewards. There are so many. So maybe you're not ready for therapy yet, and that's okay. And I get that. But if you're in therapy and like I said, some of this is resonating with you. Like I've just been sitting there for like the last year. I've had clients come to me like, I was with my therapist for 20 years. I never learned this. Well, one, 20 years, I mean, there's some new tools. Or I've had people say, I've been with my therapist for two years and they've never given me a treatment plan. Okay, maybe that's just because people don't understand that you should have a treatment plan. Or maybe it's been, you know, five years with a therapist, and you're like, I just still don't understand how to navigate my anxiety. Okay, then what were you doing in that therapy room for five years? What were you doing? Did they give you tangible tools to manage that anxiety? And here's the thing too, I don't want to um, you know, rip on all the clinicians. Oftentimes we give clients tools, but they just don't do anything with them. Um, I have a little box um next to the couch in my office and it's full of paper, like note cards and pens. And I fully expect you to help yourself and write down your notes. I had one guy say to me, Will you write that note down for me? You write that down. I was like, Oh my gosh. I said, Nope. If it's important, you'll write it down for yourself. And again, that's like that taking responsibility for your goals and achieving those goals. You have to do that. But if if therapy isn't working or you're not ready for therapy yet, then you can look for things that will help you get there. Now, do not get stuck on this help, this like self-help reading five million books. If you're not, again, implementing the tools and the self-help, you're doing no different than sitting on a couch doing no tools. Does that make sense? Self-help can be um, these self-help books can be be a an avoidance mechanism. It really can be. Or maybe you're doing the self-help because you've had crappy therapists. I get that, and your feelings were hurt. But you can find, you know, I'd say, you know, read a self-help book, then give yourself, I don't know, two months to practice, excuse me, to practice those tools. You can't, you you'll get to the point of saturation, but if you're not practicing, it's not gonna land. It just won't land. So you can read all you want, but you have to practice. And that's why I created the Untangling Mind series, is there actual workbooks. There's education in it, but there's workbooks. It's it's action-oriented because our brain needs that practice to create new brain pathways, new neural pathways, new thinking and behavioral patterns. So my workbook series does that. It's education and it's action, it's cognitive and it's behavioral and it's attachment. So it's all of those things. You know, so you have to think about that. If you're reading like a self-help book that's just super fluffy and there's no like structured or practical work, then you're not gonna feel better. You're just gonna keep consuming, right? So again, you know, going through this, talking about um the typical therapeutic model, talk is cheap, good therapy isn't. So there's a reason why some of us charge a premium. And hopefully I've explained to you what that premium actually covers. It's not for that 50 minutes that you're in my office, it's for those monthly assessments, it's for all of the worksheets and workbooks, all of the, I mean, it's all of it. And so, and then you understand, you know, you're losing 60% off the top two just to just to be a clinician. But I wanted to talk about that because I do know this is a particularly sensitive topic for a lot of people. And I see there's a real divide in the clinical world. They're like, you shouldn't talk about count, you know, prices and da-da-da-da-da. I had um one internship site and it was very vulgar of what she said, but we were talking about rates. And by the way, I charge more than she did at the time. And she said to me, Piper, I would never rape a client over fees. And I was shocked by her language. It was disgusting. But I think that's a really wrong way to look at this. As clinicians, we're allowed to charge a premium, and we can still hold space for compassion. You cannot expect a therapist to charge you 50 bucks an hour, do all the things that we have to do, even if they don't do what I do, just clinical notes, continuing education, and insurance. How are you know how much that's gonna be left over, right? It's like six bucks. And yet they have $70,000 and a master's to pay off. I mean, come on. Um, and so it is difficult to talk about these fees, but I really do think that, like I said in the intro, that compassion and capitalism can be in the same, in the same room. I had one client, I'm pretty strict on my um cancellation fee. And um they canceled late, so it's the full session fee. And his response was, um, I would just think somebody like you would be more compassionate. And listen, it was just him being pissed off, and and that's fine. And I was like, well, okay, you you have a choice. You're gonna get charged no matter what, but you have a choice what you're gonna do with this. Like you can throw your tantrum and that's fine. But this has nothing to do with compassion. What is lacking in compassion is that you think my time is so invaluable that you're just gonna no show and say, I shouldn't be charged. Why? I was sitting there waiting for you. I did all the prep work. Why is that? But for some reason, there's this breakdown in the therapeutic field that, oh my gosh, how dare you charge? How dare you talk about money? You can have both of the things of compassionate clinical experience and have a fee that reflects that. So just to kind of wrap this up, I really do believe that this um passive model that we're seeing in the field, it's driving me nuts. Um, and these mass market platforms because they really devalue those of us that are working our butts off. And gosh, don't even get me started on AI. If you guys haven't tried AI Chat GPT as a therapist, you're gonna feel really good. He's a great cheerleader. But if you actually want things to change, it's not gonna happen. Um, so there's a lot of that talk in the field. But again, I really think this passive model of just sitting there on the couch nodding your head, or these mass marketing, mass market platforms, um, they're cheaping, cheapening those of us that are really trying hard to provide a in-depth clinical experience, compassionate, but we're giving you the tools because that's what you came to us for. We we want to help you. So, you know, a lot of us want to hold you accountable and hold ourselves accountable. We want to be seen as part of the medical community. We work hard to document and track those things. And there's a lot of uh of us in the field that just don't do anything. There's, I just want to make people feel good. Okay, well, making people feel good is not necessarily good. It's just not. Therapy, I think, can be a very uncomfortable experience. But after, you know, or during the process, you start applying tools, you're like, oh my gosh, now I feel good. But it's not because you're just passively sitting on the couch nodding your head. So I hope this was um helpful for you to hear that the the fee that you're paying for in therapy is not just for that hour, that there's this real misconception that, well, I'm paying $100 an hour and that that therapist is, I don't know, I don't even get a whole hour. Okay, but it's not even a hundred bucks that they're they're actually going home with. If they work for a um therapy practice, there's usually like at the best a 60-40 split. At the best, most of them are 70-30. Um, so if you think if a a clinician only gets 40 or 50%, maybe 60% of their $100, at the most they might get 60 bucks. Well, then there are 1099, they have to take 30% out, then they have to think about their insurance, all of that. So, really what you're looking at is they're maybe walking away with 25 bucks an hour. If you have the expectation that someone's going to help you understand what's going on with your anxiety, trauma, and grief, do you think that they're going to be able to do that at 25 bucks an hour where they have their own bills, they have to pay for their master's, they have to do all of these things and hold space for you. No. I mean, so again, this is just to bring this to mind for everybody that premium therapy does have a premium price. It is up to you what you do with the tools the therapist gets gives you. You can't blame us if you're not using the tools and paying the premium. That's on you. But I wanted everybody to understand that the fee is more than just for that hour. It is so much included in that. And I'm not saying this begrudgingly. I'm not saying um, you know, like I'm irritated with this at all. In fact, the only people I'm irritated with is clinicians because they're going along with these mass-marketed better helps and stuff and cheapening those of us in our hard work. Where I've had people call and they're like, well, I, you know, I've had one person call. Well, I want someone that has 20 years of experience. And, you know, they do EMDR or whatever. I'm like, okay, you do know it took me just five years to get out of this. Five years. And then you want another 15 years of clinical experience. Why? Oh, and by the way, they don't want to spend more than $65 an hour. I mean, literally, we've had those calls. So this is just for you to understand, you you do get what you paid for. You really do. And the reality is that if you want different therapy, oftentimes you're gonna have a different therapy price. You just are. So thanks again for joining me today and kind of talking about how talk therapy is cheap. It just is. And if you want strategic um data-driven therapy, then you gotta shop around. Check out my website. I wrote a blog as well about how to find a great therapist and provided questions. You're allowed to interview therapists. You absolutely are allowed to do that. Some of them don't like that, but that's because they don't want to be held to standards. So take all care, y'all. If you have any questions, I would love to hear from you or some insights, love to hear from you. Um, I think this is a really powerful conversation and a really important conversation. Take care and I'll talk to you next time. That's it for today's episode. I hope something in this conversation challenged the way you think about therapy and maybe in the way you invest in yourself. If you're ready to do more than just talk, and if you're ready to make real change, measurable change, head over to untingledmind.net to learn how we can work together. And if this episode gave you something valuable, consider rating, reviewing, or sharing it with someone who else who's tried and tired of surface level support and ready for something deeper. I'm Piper Harris, and this is the Untangled Mind Podcast. Until next time, stay clear, stay grounded, and keep doing the work.