Welcome back to the Untangled Mind Podcast. I'm Piper Harris, therapist, cognitive strategist, and your guide for conversations that cut through the noise. Here we don't stay surface level. We dig into what actually helped you change your life practically, thoughtfully, and with purpose. Today's episode started with something totally unplanned. I took one of those silly online quizzes, the kind that tells you you're philosophical type. I wasn't expecting much, but the results hit home. Instead, I was a blend of a rationalist, an idealist, an existentialist, and a pragmatist, with a little cynic tossed in there. And as strange as it sounds, it helped me connect some dots. Because that's exactly how I practice therapy. A mix of logic, purpose, personal meaning, action, and refusal to play nice with free pits. So let's dig in and learn more about how we can use our philosophical types to change our lives. I do a lot of reading, but this is going to be interesting. Let's see what the silly thing says. And so I went through it and it was fun. It was, I mean, it's fun. It wasn't um earth-shattering information for me. I pretty much knew where I sat with a lot of these things. And so I just thought it would be really interesting to tie in what I've been reading and how this all came together for me in my mind. So just some background information. So the last month, um, just on a personal level, my husband and I had this like formal dining room, right? You know, it's kind of like this is what we grew up with with our parents. We have this personal, this um, you know, formal dining room. And we both were like, this is dumb. We use this thing twice a year, and all I do is dust it. It was really irritating me. And so we've recently gone through some significant like changes. My husband retired his work with the federal government, and he's now working from home. So it's kind of like, well, this is an opportunity to develop a new um office for him. And I said, Well, what about this? Let's sell our whole dining room, let's just get it out and let's create like our reading lounge because we love books, we are avid readers. Um, and so this is we've been putting it together. I'll pop in um some pictures maybe on my website and I'll show you. So we're excited, we've gone through this entire process of reorganizing, and I just have to tell you, I love it. It was so funny. I was talking to a friend, she's like, you know, to be officially called a library, you have to have a thousand books. And so we went through all of our books one night, and I think we have 786 that's in the house right now or in the rooms right now. I bet you we have more. But all that to be said, we're on um the path towards being a library, and we love it. We're such nerds, we love to cozy up with a book. So I designed this beautiful reading lounge. I really am proud of how my vision came together. Um, nice, you know, stuffed over stuffed leather chairs. We've got the record player there and mood lighting. Like it's so good. So, all that to be said, that ties into what I'm talking about with this quiz because I was just cozied up in a chair and I was reading a book. I've started reading a book called The Master and the Emissary by Ian Gilchrist, McGilchrist. And I was kind of, it's a heavy book. So I put it down for a little bit and I was doing the scrolling, and that led me to this philosophy quiz. So, what I want to say is I've always believed that therapy should be about thinking well, 100%. In fact, that's why when I speak to my clients a lot about stoicism, it's not about denying feelings, it's it's not about denying traumas, it's not, and we'll talk about that like with Descartes and what he said today, but um it is very helpful sometimes for us to kind of segment some of those things because if we're overrun with emotion, then it clouds our thinking. And conversely, if we completely stifle our emotionality, then we can cloud our thinking. Anyway, so I've always believed that therapy should be about thinking well, not just talking endlessly about our past or our pain. Okay, so therapy is definitely about processing those emotions, but we've got to learn, right, to think differently, thinking well. So it's really interesting when I took this silly quiz. That's the rationalist in me, right? Where I'm thinking, I'm saying, okay, we have to learn to think well. So the rationalist in me really values structure, clarity, and data. And that is a huge premise of how I have designed Untangled Mind. That's why I love CBT. It gives you a system, it helps you walk through things. It's not just about feeling. But I also learned with this silly quiz that I am also an idealist. So that is that I believe there's a purpose in all of this. And it's not just outcomes or labels or data. Okay. So that means that we are created with meaning baked into it, and that the the work of therapy isn't just to reduce symptoms, but to help people to return to who they were made to be. And maybe they never knew who they were made to be. So it's about helping that person create and define the self that they've never been in touch with. Then there's the existentialist in me. Okay. So I've been through my own trauma, and obviously I walk with clients through significant trauma, you know, grief, loss, betrayal. So those kind of things, they really force all of us to ask ourselves, like, why am I here? What is going on? And so it's really that search for meaning, right? It's not optional. It really isn't. And that's another thing with this philosophical quiz. It talked about Piper, you're also an existentialist. I'm like, I know. You know, we we need to find that meaning. It's not optional. It really is embedded in our pain. And so that is one of the big steps that we all take when I'm working with anxiety or excuse me, trauma clients, is making meaning. We've got to find significance in ourselves in a meaning making. Now, this is what I want to say, because I I get people's looks in their faces, and this is, I'll use my personal meaning making. I am a rape victim, okay, from a very young age. And for many years, I carried a lot of shame, a lot of pain, all of it. And through the years, as I've walked through my own um healing process, I made meaning out of that process. Meaning is, this does not release the individual from rape for the terrible thing that he did to me. The first step I had to do was define what happened to me, redefine it. And so how I defined that was I am the unfortunate consequence of someone's evil choice. Period. It is not an indictment on my character. It is not a definition of who I am. It has nothing to do with me, except that I was the unfortunate consequence of somebody's evil choice. Period. End of story, that's it. That was the first thing that I had to get to was like take out uh this gay, this guilt, this shame, this humiliation, all of these things that tied into what was done to me. That is a consequence of the crap that I went through. Okay, but that that's not actually what it is. That's where the emotional side of me took over and told me I am worthless or I deserved this or whatever it may be. I had to redefine what happened. Then as the years have gone forward, I can say then, okay, what's the meaning in this? There's it's not optional. I have to find meaning in this because otherwise, then I just sit there and say, well, it was just pain. I just, I mean, everybody has pain, yes, and we all have suffering, but if we can suffer well, and I've talked about this in blogs and podcasts, it allows me to integrate that pain much more better than just looking at the pain. Does that make sense? So that existentialist in me is like, okay, I am searching for meaning here. There is no option because I know it's embedded in the pain. And I'll never forget, I was having a conversation with a good friend of ours, and he and I were talking just about some stuff, and he's a priest. He's just a really dear friend of ours. And we came to this conclusion together. If we had not had the things in our life, it would not have led us to who we are today. If we had not gone through that pain and suffering that absolutely changed the trajectory of our lives, we would not be the human beings that we are today. So I have embraced that forever. That do I wish I was not raped? Yeah, of course. However, I am not going to let that define me. I am, however, going to let it let me be able to say to that thing that was done to me, you no longer define me. There is a purpose and a meaning behind this, and I'm going to take it for the betterment of the world. Does that make sense? So then the final piece that came with this um quiz was the the the pragmatist part. So, and that's simple. I I don't care how beautiful a the a theory sounds. If it doesn't help a client move forward, it's useless. It's so funny. I was listening the other day. I'm gonna be on a podcast here in a couple weeks, and um the the host had some guy on, and he was like an NLP practitioner, and he was talking about um like the the levels of understanding. And I'm listening to the guy, and I'm like, this is just dressed up Johari's window. Like, and I just got kind of I got my backup about it, you know, but then I had to, and I don't know why. Um, but I was like, this is just Johari's window with different verbiage. And so, but again, I had to step back and go, okay, why does this bug you? Well, it doesn't really bug me. I think this is in every field, whether it's psychology, whatever, you know, whatever it may be, especially in psychology, um, philosophy, whatever, is a lot of times there's nothing new under the sun, right? There's just nothing new under the sun. And so I don't buy into like a singular theory. I just don't. I don't believe in that. I think that we can chew the meat, spit out the bones. I just I just feel that way, period. And so I never adhere to just CBT. People roll their eyes like, oh, she does CBT. You should see the people that roll their eyes at me, my colleagues. Um, I'm not a manualized CBT clinician because I don't like to follow the rules. And I don't think CBT gets everything right. That's why I have an integration of different theories. My co-partner, she only does Adlerian theory, and I think it's wrong. I just don't do that. I don't prescribe just to one theory because if it doesn't work for a client, then it's useless. So we need to integrate different approaches. So that's kind of what this quiz brought to me, this silly quiz that, you know, I'm a rationalist, an idealist. This is kind of like how it rated me, like how often I use these different philosophical approaches. Rationalist, idealist, existentialist, pragmatist, and cynic. Like, I'm definitely cynical with some things. Not in a bad way, but I like to challenge things. So shortly after that quiz, um, I was just sitting there kind of processing it and just kind of giggling about it, and like, yeah, I knew this was how it was, told my husband, and he rolled his eyes. He's like, Yeah, I could have totally told you this is who you are. Um, but shortly after that quiz, I told you I was reading Master and Emissary, and then I was thinking about, you know, there's that book also that um I'm digging into, and it's Descartes Error by Antonio Damasio, and it really couldn't be better timed. So Rene Descartes, of course, is best known for the phrase um cogito ergo sum. Okay, I believe I okay, I can't read, I can't say this. But anyway, what he's saying is, I think, therefore I am. Okay, I think, therefore, I am. So we've heard this everywhere, right? I think therefore I am. And listen, I do believe in this because that's a premise of CBT. That's also kind of a premise of my faith, of like where our thoughts go is where I follow. I think therefore I am. So our mind is so spectacularly powerful. So I don't think Descartes was totally wrong. But that one sentence, I think therefore I am, launched centuries, excuse me, of division in like this Western thought, that the idea that the mind is separate from the body, okay, that emotion muddies logic, that if we could just think hard enough, we could bypass our feelings altogether. And again, this is why I get rolling eyes from other therapists, because they're like, oh, she's one of those. She only does the cognitive. And I'm like, okay, well, there's the B in there too. It is C B T. There's the B in there as well. And then we get into the whole thing of what people think of behavioralists. And I mean, it's believe me, the the counseling world, the psychology world is cutthroat, people, cutthroat. But but the idea that the mind is separate from the body is kind of it's a dangerous one. So especially if you've lived through trauma or anxiety, you know 100% that this is not true. We can't outthink the body's memory. We can't logic our way past our nervous system that's in a threat state. 100%. And we talk about this in the therapy room all the time. And Damasio showed through this book, Descartes' Era, and through neuroscience, that we he proved that emotion is a requirement for sound reasoning. So clients with damage to like emotional processing centers of the brain can't make um basic decisions, even though their logic circuits are totally intact. Why? Because emotion gives um emotion is what gives value and weight to thought and meaning to thought. Okay. So Descartes wasn't just wrong, he was dangerously wrong if we use this only as a therapy model. Okay. So if you're not seeing a trend yet, I'll spell it out. I don't follow the rules just because they're there. And that goes for therapy models as well, academic, orthodoxy, you know, all of that. And even philosophical tradition. And that trait aligns with the cynics, the existentialists, and the pragmatists. So people who challenge systems that don't serve real people. Okay. So Descartes, although his mind, his thoughts were in the right place, and although I believe wholeheartedly in thinking well, like one of my favorite scriptures that I used to manage my rumination is take every thought captive in obedience to Christ. I mean, I repeat that sucker over and over and over and over again when I'm I'm stuck in a rheumative loop. So I do believe in the power of I think, therefore I am. However, we cannot separate it from the body and from emotions. We can't. So again, it goes back to I'm digging into that other book, The Master and His Emissary. This is by Ian McGilchrist. And so what it he talks about, and this really has, I know this is like roundabout Descartes' error, the The Master and the Emissary and a silly quiz. I'll I'll bring it together, I promise. So it turns out, this is what McGilchrist talks about, that the old like left brain, right brain myth um is not true. And probably why I like McGillchrist, because he argues. But what he argues is that our understanding of hemisphere function has been dangerously oversimplified. Dangerously. So it's not about just logic versus emotion. It is really because what we say is left is logic, right is emotion. Okay. What we actually are learning is that it's about how each hemisphere interprets and interacts with the world. So the right hemisphere sees context, relationship, and big picture. The left abstracts and manipulates it. So in modern life, frankly, like even modern therapy, we're like sometimes super dominated by the left. And so the emissary is acting as a master. Does this make sense? So I share this because it echoes what I've done and I've known in my own work. You cannot reduce healing to data points or logic trees. Yes, you need structure. Yes, but you also need story, embodiment, and meaning. And I know I've shared it before. I had someone tell me, well, you know, you're the science of counseling. I'm the art. And it was meant as a dig. And I'm obviously still butthurt about it because I'm still talking about it because it was highly offensive. Because this is the problem, again, in my field, that it can get a little cutthroat, is like, well, but Piper really focuses on data and she focused on CBT and this pathway she's created. So that takes away all the emotionality, which is totally inaccurate. But I think that we can have both. So we cannot reduce a person just strictly to data points and logic, and we cannot just reduce a person to emotionality. You can't. You have it have to have an integration of all of these things, much like my philosophical types, right? I'm not just one philosophical type. I remember, um, gosh, it was a couple years ago. Um, I was really studying Stoicism, and I had read um research, and I I can't remember the PMID code. I can't remember any of that. It was years ago. And what I had read about it is those that really study and practice Stoicism actually have difficulty in retaining memory. So if we only adhere to a stoic philosophy, especially like the cynic or the rationalist, what happens is that by by really practicing that, we are turning off the emotional centers of the brain's brain, which then means that we are not retaining memory. So, although I love, love the study of stoicism, and I love the idea of you know how I think is therefore who I am, there is a danger in only practicing that way because we're not integrating emotionality that allows us memory. Okay. So if we don't correct Descartes' error, if we don't return the master to the rightful role of the brain hemispheres, we end up missing the whole person in front of us. So let's talk about what this integration really looks like. Um my work is not just about cognitive strategies, it is about integration. And this is something that you need to hear for yourself as well. You can't just do one thing, it needs to be an integration of mind, body, and spirit. So, yes, I use data-driven CBT because I want clients to see their product progress. And frankly, I should be held accountable. Psychology counseling is a highly subjective field. There's nothing wrong with carrying quantitative data to prove that my approach works, but so often in this field, we shy away from that. And I don't understand because again, you're taking away this integration approach. It's oh, only this theory. This is only the theory I do. And again, in the field of psychology counseling, I mean, there really is staunch lines with like, you know, I only do CBT, I only do psychoanalysis, I only, I mean, like, there really is. They make you study it in school, and I'm definitely integrationist for sure. So we really need to integrate mind, binding, and spirit. So, yes, I do CBT, and yes, I carry data, but I also integrate that somatic work, right? The vagal activation, the vagal regulation, the breath work, because we have to stabilize the nervous system. We have to. So, for example, if a client is absolutely spiraling in anxiety, I don't say to them, hey, let's challenge that thought like right off the bat. I cannot do that. Because if you know how the brain is reacting, if they're in a total spiral with anxiety, that brain, that logic center is offline. So we have to engage the the body. We have to, we have to engage that nervous system. That's why we name what's happening physiologically. That's why I use grounding, that's why I use my structured workbooks, that's why I have studied neuropsychology, neuroscience. That's why I continue to study because it is not just one or the other. So it really is where neuroscience and CBT meet. That's why I deliberately created the Untangled Mind Pathway because it understands the whole person. And it's it's what the whole person needs to be seen, not just their thoughts. The other part that I bring into the therapy room that you need to consider for yourself, mindy, mind, body, and spirit integration is I will bring faith into the room. Not as a dogma, but as a foundation. And again, a lot of my clients don't prescribe to subscribe to religion. And that's fine. But I believe our healing is not just psychological and it's not just biological, it's spiritual. 100%. The world tells us that we might just be chemicals or trauma responses, but scripture tells us that we are fearfully and wonderfully made. And healing honors that design. So many of my clients, again, don't subscribe to faith so much, but what we do with the approach is we're looking for meaning. We're constantly seeking for meaning, as I shared with my own personal story. We have to integrate those sides of ourselves for ultimate full whole healing. So my philosophy is simple, right? Even though it says I'm rationalist, idealist, like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. My philosophy is very simple. We are not some floating random brain. We are fully integrated human beings. And I don't want to offer therapy that pretends otherwise, and neither do I want to lie to myself. Doesn't make sense. So let's talk a little bit more directly about faith. So as a Christian and as a therapist, a Catholic Christian and a therapist, I don't impose my beliefs. I don't. But I also don't separate them from my work. It was really interesting. I have a new client that came in with flight anxiety and we're working through it. And I said, Well, did you have a chance? We're doing the intake, did you have a chance to go through my website? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, why did you put your faith on your website? I'm like, ooh, this is great. Nobody's asked me this question before. I had one guy walk out of the office, but um that was a whole different story. And I said, Well, because I think it's really understand that you understand my worldview. And he's like, but why? And I said, because you need to understand my worldview and that what my my faith said is that suffering isn't meaningless, pain isn't random, and trauma isn't the end, anxiety isn't the end. And he just kind of looked at me. He's like, oh, I'm like, it's just, it's not just some willy-nilly proclamation. But if there's someone like yourself that takes a minute to say, why did you even put that all over your website? And by the way, it's in my informed consent too. But why? We it really opened a very interesting conversation. He doesn't prescribe to my beliefs at all, but I said, this should show you how I approach life. I believe truly that God uses suffering for transformation. I do. And this is one of those kind of existential questions that we we face in the therapy room all the time and in our lives. Well, if he is such a great God, then why am I suffering? God never said we weren't gonna suffer. He said we need to learn to suffer well because the ultimate gift is at the end of our lives. So so it was such a good conversation. And I thanked him. I'm like, what an awesome conversation for you to open this up to. And we'll never talk about it again because he doesn't prescribe to religion. That's totally cool, but what an awesome conversation for me to say, because this is my worldview, that I believe that there is meaning in your suffering, and I am going to fight to find it for you and with you. So I believe God uses suffering for transformation, and that healing is not just a symptom reduction. It's not, it's not, we're not, we're not reducing something. I'm not reducing what was done to me, what was taken from me. Believe me, I still have some anger in there, and I should, but it's about soul restoration. That's where I draw from Victor Frankel or the existentialist approach. You know, he was a Holocaust survivor, and he wrote, Those who have a why to live can bear almost any how. Listen to that. Like just reading it, I have goosebumps. Those who have a why to live can bear almost any how. Ugh. I don't believe people are broken. I believe that they've been wounded 100%, misled, shut down, or conditioned. But their design is still good and it's still rev redemptive and it's still reachable. If I didn't believe that, what the hell am I doing as a therapist? But then the pragmatism does remind me if our work and session doesn't help that client get out of bed, show up for the kids, or face the day, then it's not working and it's time to pivot. It's time to pivot. So as I've been kind of going through this, you know, again, the silly quiz that brought me to the book Descartes Um Error by Antonio Damasio, and really kind of formulating my thought of I think therefore I am. Yes, I believe in that, but hey, we cannot reduce ourselves to just the thought, right? And that brings in then the master and the emissary, and we have to have full integration of each right and left hemisphere and biology. But then that also brings me into then we have to have the spiritual. I think too often people come to me and they're just desperately searching for answers. And it's like, well, I've done this, but they've left out the other. Well, I've done this and they've left out the other. And so they're chasing their tail and they're absolutely exhausted. And I say, okay, but we have to integrate them all. We must integrate them all, or we're always going to have a gap in our healing or a gap in our progress. So what does this mean for you? And like, what's the practical application? Let's bring this home. After all the philosophy, the neuroscience and therapy talk, the real question is this what does this mean for you, the listener, right? You're like, great Piper, love hearing about your new library, philosophy, all these books. I'm never gonna read those. I don't want them. So, you know, just what does this mean for me? So, whether you're in therapy, considering therapy, or you're just kind of trying to make sense of parts of your life, the emotional part or whatever, this part is definitely for you. So let's start here. More than likely, if you've listened to me, you've heard me say over and over again, feelings are not facts. But I don't stop there. I said feelings are flags. That's a distinction. That's kind of the through line of this entire episode, right? I say feelings aren't facts, but I do not stop there because that would be reducing, reducing something to I, you know, I think therefore I am that that that's all it is. No, no, no, no. You need to keep listening. Feelings are flags, they tell us something. So, see, the rationalism tells us that logic matters, and I totally agree. But without emotion, there is no compass. Just like I said, that research that came back, that people that totally practice stoicism all the time cannot maintain memory because we need emotion for memory. That's where trauma comes in, right? That's a lot of my work where we are having to restructure the traumatic memory. The memory has been attached to a horrific emotion. So we desensitize this memory and this feeling because they have been um they have been stored incorrectly. They've been stored incorrectly. So, but without emotion, there's no compass, right? So idealism reminds us that we're not just meat and neurons, right? We are created with a purpose. And existentialism, it challenges us to find that meaning and suffering. So here we go. We are understanding when it comes to say trauma, that we are having to separate that memory and that feeling because they have been stored incorrectly because of the high emotionality. Now, here's something that I want to bring into play. Some of my clients come in and I do a battery of assessments and it shows no emotionality. None. But when I dig in, I see their trauma history. I'm like, ah, defense mechanism. So, what did the brain do there? It gave you the stoic brain. And so I have to wake up that part of the brain before I can go into anything else. Because that part of the brain shut off as a defense mechanism to protect the human being that's sitting in front of me. So it is a different process for everyone. So that's kind of where existentialism comes in and challenges us to find meaning in the suffering eventually, with some folks right away. So pragmatism then demands that our work and our ideas work in real life. That's a pragmatist. Okay, so this is our idea. How does it work in real life? And then the cynic, of course, that's the part that refuses to accept easy answers and surface level solutions. So these philosophies are not, you know, abstract labels. They really aren't. And I really suggest you read into it. I'm sure if you did a quick, you know, online search of like philosophical quiz, you'll find one. So the physical these philosophies aren't really abstract labels. They show up in how I think, how I work with clients, and how I live. And that brings me back to even the neuroscience. So remember the book I told you about, The Master and His Emissary by Ian Gil McGilchrist. What he shares is a really powerful framework for understanding why so many people feel stuck, fragmented, or misunderstood. And by the way, we can draw that out to be seen in the therapy room. No, you don't want someone that only does cognitive work and only does data, nor do you want someone that only talks about emotions. So so he challenges, McGillchrist challenges that old myth, the left brain is logical, the right brain is emotional. Okay, so instead he shows that both hemispheres handle emotion, thought, and language, but they relate to the world very differently, just like you. We're complex. So the right hemisphere, we call that the master. It sees the whole world, it holds paradox, context, relationship, and lived experience. It's where story and meaning live. When we study the developing brain in children in traumatic environments, the right hemisphere is actually developing more so. And what we see, which is really interesting, is that it really develops because it's trying to make understanding. It's trying to go like what's going on. It actually delays the left hemisphere, and we can see these individuals that have this complex trauma history, especially that that abuse, what neglect, whatever it may be in childhood. We actually see them struggle, struggle with logic. So the left hemisphere, we call that the emissary, breaks things down. It names, it analyzes, it controls, it categorizes. It's super useful. But it really is not the thing that's meant to lead. So we can see some people are only driven by right, and we can see that some people are only driven by left, dependent on what the brain decides to do. Okay, but his warning, McGillchrist warning, is this our culture has elevated the left side, the emissary. Okay. We overthink, we over-pathologize, so we label emotions instead of listening to them, and we reduce healing to protocols. Now listen. This you're like, Piper, this sounds totally opposite to what you're saying. No, no, no, no. The whole point of this is integration. You've learned through my philosophy quiz, I am not one thing. If you've gotten to know me, heck, if you've sat on my couch, you know it's not just data and all left. It's right too. So here's the shift I want to invite you into. Stop asking, is this feeling true? Stop it. I mean, we can we need to ask it, but I guess it's not stop asking, is this feeling true? It's stop saying this feeling is true. Stop saying this feeling is true. Start asking, what is this feeling flagging? That's where we can use the rationalist part of our philosophy and the existentialist. That's where we see the left integrate with the right. That's where true healing is. So instead of saying this feeling is true, start asking, what is it flagging flagging? What is it telling me? We we integrate the rationalist and the existentialist. We integrate the right and the left. That's where healing actually starts. So here's a practical path forward. This is how you can apply this right now. Okay, so take out your pen and pencil or your pencil and your paper and write this down. Okay. So number one, you have got to audit your framework. You've got to audit your framework. You can ask yourself, am I trying to logic my way out of pain? Am I defaulting to control? Am I confusing intense emotion with accuracy? What what are you doing there? Audit your framework. Okay, audit your framework. Am I only using logic to get myself out of pain? Am I defaulting to control? Am I confusing intensity with accuracy? All of that. So this could be showing you that you are relying too heavily on the left brain, too much on the pragmatist. Okay. Number two, use feelings as flags, not facts. Emotions are not always truth, but they are signals. But those signals could be inaccurate. They could show you signals of need, right? Like a boundary, a belief, disconnection, or even history. We have to learn to pause before interpreting. So use your feelings as flags, not facts. I've talked about this before, that emotions aren't necessarily indicative of what's actually going on. Like we talked about um last podcast, emotional reasoning. I think I'm a loser, therefore I am. Nah. Or I feel like a loser, so therefore I am. No, no, no, no, no, no. That's why I always say feelings aren't facts. But our brain will take these pathways that we've developed, whether that's in a neglectful traumatic upbringing or what's happened into our lives or a new traumatic event. It they're they're flags, not facts. And we have to untangle those things. Okay. So number one, audit your framework. Number two, use feelings as flags, not facts. Number three, number three, and this is huge for those of you that are seeking for therapy that actually works. Okay. Pair top-down, bottom-up approaches. Top-down, bottom-up. We're talking about the brain. Okay. So this is where I get people telling me that I'm only the science of counseling. Yeah, I'm still butthurt. It was just such a mean, stupid comment. But anyway, this is where we hear you're the science, I'm the art. Okay. The problem is, is this is a reductionist way of thinking. This is a black or white thinking. We have to pair top-down, bottom-up approaches. What that means, what that means is top-down, those are our cognitive approaches, CBT, right? I love CBT. Love it. And they are so powerful, but it does not work alone. So we do a top-down approach. But most importantly, before we do a top-down approach, is we have to do a bottom-up approach. Bottom-up simply means that when we're looking at the brain, the amygdala, that's our fear center, that system gets an overdrive, especially with people with anxiety and trauma. So I need to do a bottom-up approach to regulate that nervous system to calm down the amygdala before I can even do top-down parts of the brain. It's offline. So we have to do nervous system regulation. So that's a Vegas work, the somatic awareness work, so body scans, that sort of thing. Again, you cannot do one theoretical approach. I just don't believe in it in this field. And I don't believe that if we only prescribe to one philosophical approach, I think we we lose, we miss out on so much. We have to integrate. And what we see with the brain, what we see in neuropsychology, neuroscience, is that we have got to do uh more integration. It's not just right and left hemisphere, it's not just top and bottom approaches. It is yes. It is yes. We have to do top-down, bottom-up. So if you're in therapy right now, ask your therapist, is your approach considered top-down or bottom-up? See what they do. Listen, if they're doing their work, they should know, hey, this is a great question. I'm more bottom-up. Or if they say, oh, I'm really not sure what you're talking about, maybe you should consider another therapist. Because they don't understand the brain. If we're meddling with your thoughts, your emotions, shouldn't they know what's happening in the brain? Hmm, good question, right? So we have to pair top-down, bottom-up approaches. So do you. So if you are trying to just think yourself out of anxiety, it ain't gonna work, sister. It's not gonna work. How many times have you been told by someone, would you just calm down? And you never calm down. That's because you need a bottom-up approach too. Hey, babe, like, like let's sit down. I'd love to help you do some box breathing or let's do, you know, whatever it may be. Let me hug you. Let me hug the snot out of you. Regulate the the vag the nervous system that's bottom up before you start trying to talk to somebody about why you think that they're out of control. Don't tell somebody just to calm down. It does not work. It falls on deaf ears. Okay, number four, anchor into meaning. You gotta anchor into meaning. So whether that's family, faith, calling, or some deeply personal why. This is where the idealist and existentialist side shines through. Without meaning, even healing feels hollow. So I can show people on their data points, like you're out of clinical levels. We have resolved PTSD from this singular event and they still feel hollow. Then I know we are still needing to do that meaning work. So oftentimes we do value sorts. Oftentimes we do kind of like mind mapping exercises. Like, what are these thought networks that are not allowing you to step into meaning making? So without meaning, healing can feel hollow. So if you've been you've been like, yeah, I've been doing this therapy thing, but I just feel like hollow with it. Like I go in, I cry, I talk a little bit, and I walk out and I'm like, what's the point? Well, you haven't anchored into meaning. You gotta have meaning. You got to. And I know this is extraordinarily difficult, especially with those of you who have that complex trauma history where you're like, I don't have family, they abandoned me, they abused me, whatever it may be. I have this problem, this problem, this problem, my my health is falling apart. It's hard. It's hard to find meaning. It is so difficult. But your therapist should be able to help you do that. Meaning making is the core, the core, I think, um of finding whole healing. Okay. And number five, choose integrated approach. Choose an integrated approach. If all you did was focus on cognition thinking, it's not gonna work. And if all you do with your therapist is think about or talk about emotion, it's not gonna work. It's not gonna work. You have to find a model that respects the full terrain of who you are, body, mind, and spirit. You have to. So you're not this walking diagnosis, you're not a set set of symptoms, you're not um some broken brain, you are a fully integrated human being. You're wired for clarity and connection and for meaning. You are so if um you've never been told this before, you're allowed to be both a thinker and a feeler. Sometimes our thinking and our feeling gets tangled, right? And so that's why you need ways to pull these thoughts and these things apart. And can I just say this to you? Challenge your own thinking. Challenge your own thinking. Yes, I read books where the individuals, the authors, kind of challenge the norm because that speaks to me, but it also challenges what I believe. Like just last weekend, I went on a trip with my family and I was listening to a Huberman podcast. It was on the Vegas nerve. It was great, so look it up. Um, and some of the things He challenged me on. I I mean, really, some of the things that I've I've taught on the Vegas nerve, it wasn't wrong. It just wasn't fully flushed out. And so it was great. I listened to him. I'm like, okay, he's challenging something that I've been practicing and teaching. So what do I do with that challenge? I can ignore it or I can integrate it. Same goes with um last week I had to send out um my client satisfaction surveys. I do that every quarter. I say I have to, um, because I hold myself to that standard. I didn't want, did not want to send them out. I'll be completely honest. I had some um pretty difficult counseling relationships end, and I figured for sure I'd get kicked in the teeth. And so I really didn't want to send this quarterly satisfaction survey. Is anybody making me do it? No. But I helped, I held myself to that standard. Because without somebody challenging me, and maybe they're just mad at me and they're just gonna be mean, that's fine. But I need to be challenged to become better. So if all you're listening to is the same fluffy pop psychologist, and again, you guys are gonna hear this. I've said it a million times. I swear to you, if you keep telling me what Mel Robbins tells you to do, I'm going to scream. She's she's not a therapist. Stop it. Just stop. She's an attorney that has a good platform. She's just stop. But anyway, I I digress. If if you don't accept a challenge, you are not going to fully heal. My clients know that I'm going to challenge their way of thinking. And by the way, my clients challenge me too. And that's what's awesome about a relationship. Like that client I told you, is like, why'd you even put your faith on your website? And it opened up an amazing conversation. It challenged him for sure, but he challenged me. And I had to stand up for, I had to accurately express why I do the things that I do. Challenge is good. If all you do is sit in your echo chamber and only read your pop psychology or only do X, Y, and Z, challenge is good for the brain. Challenge is good for the body. I mean, we learned this like with different parts of the brain. Challenge is extraordinary for the brain. And it rewards us with the increase in those feel-good neurotransmitters. So I want to say to you, please challenge yourself. You have to. You are allowed to be a thinker and a feeler, 100%. Sometimes they get tangled, let's work it out. So that's why you're allowed to demand therapy that reflects the whole self and someone that's gonna challenge you. That's really what this whole podcast is about. That's why I don't always follow the rules. It's not just because I want to be a brat. Although my husband might say that's what I like to do. But your life deserves an integrated approach. So you're not just one philosophical type. You're probably multiple. And if you are, be careful. So where does this leave us? Maybe it's with this. Um, healing isn't about picking a single lane. It's not just neuroscience, it's not just you know, CBT, it's not just emotions and regulations or you know, emotional regulation, it's not just philosophy or faith or vagal regulation. It's all about finding a path that honors the full reality of who you are. That brings us to the end of this episode. Thanks so much for joining me. I hope you learned some tools that can equip you to untangle your mind and untangle your life. If you're curious about working with me for your anxiety or trauma, head on over to my website at untangledmind.net to connect with me. And if you're not a Georgia resident but you still want some of my tools, I offer my Untangling Mind series workbooks on the website as well. If you enjoyed the show, please rate and review me on your podcast listening platform and share it with your friends and family. As always, thanks so much for listening to me, Hiper Harris with the Untangled Mind Podcast. I'll talk with you next time.